Hire Truckers Podcast

00:00 - 00:10
Aaron Craddock: Welcome to the Hire Truckers podcast where we interview experts in driver recruiting. We provide industry insights, marketing trends, and motivation to help you level up your recruiting game.

00:10 - 00:32
Ginger Craddock: Welcome to the Hire Truckers podcast. I'm your host, Ginger Craddock. Every mile of freight from port to a warehouse to a neighborhood store is connected by a chain. And when that chain gets pulled by trade policy, every link feels the strain. I wonder if you've been feeling the strain.

00:33 - 00:58
Ginger Craddock: Tariffs. They sound like something that happens in Washington. But for truckers, retailers, ranchers, and consumers, tariffs show up in prices, in paychecks, and in the cost of keeping America moving. So good news. Today, we're joined by someone who understands every layer of this chain from the port to the policymaker.

00:58 - 01:57
Ginger Craddock: Jonathan Gold is the Vice President and of Supply Chain and Customs Policy at the National Retail Federation, where he represents the retail industry before congress and the administration on issues of supply chain, trade, and product safety. Before joining NRF, John served inside government as a US customs and border protection in that department working on cargo security and and the Safe Port Act and trades facilitation. Now he's advised multiple federal agencies from the Department of Commerce to Homeland Security, and he spent years helping shape America's approach to global trade. So in short, when it comes to understanding how tariffs move from policy to price tags, John Gold is the voice to listen to. And I could not be more excited to have Jon on the podcast today.

01:57 - 01:59
Ginger Craddock: Jon, welcome to the Hire Truckers podcast.

02:00 - 02:02
Jonathan Gold: Thanks, Ginger. It's great to be here today.

02:02 - 02:23
Ginger Craddock: Excellent. So, Jon, you've been in the middle of these trade discussions for years from both the private sector and inside government. And today, we're gonna unpack that topic that affects everyone listening, whether they're moving freight or managing a business, tariffs. So first, what are they? How do they work?

02:23 - 02:27
Ginger Craddock: And why does it matter to people today?

02:28 - 02:52
Jonathan Gold: Thanks, Ginger. I I think that's a great place to start. And I think it's really important to understand the basics because even now, there's still a lot of confusion with exactly what tariffs are and and what they do. So, you know, I think as a a starting point, it's important for folks to understand that, you know, essentially, a tariff is a tax that is paid by The US importer. It is applied when those shipments arrive here in The United States.

02:53 - 03:17
Jonathan Gold: Customs and Border Protection will collect the money from the importer for that entry and typically happens, you know, within fifteen to thirty days of that container or product arriving here in The United States and it goes right into the general treasury. So I know there's a lot of discussion of, you know, either a foreign country or a foreign company is gonna pay the tariff, But that's just simply not the case. It's The US imported themselves who pays that tariff.

03:18 - 03:27
Ginger Craddock: Wow. So can you give the intent behind the tariffs and how the recent administrations have used them?

03:28 - 03:53
Jonathan Gold: Sure. So I mean, tariffs have been around since the country was founded. It was, you know, initially a way to to pay for government operations, but we certainly moved away from that especially over the last, you know, hundred years or so where you've seen kind of the economy significantly increase. You've gone to the income tax to pay for government operations. You know, there's been some talk of using tariffs to pay for the, you know, funding the government.

03:53 - 04:27
Jonathan Gold: We can't tariff ourself enough to pay for the the government right now. I think, you know, when you look at how president Trump has been using the tariffs, you know, it's important to to recognize that he ran on tariffs as part of his his campaign. You know, he talked about throughout his campaign using a 10 to 20% global tariff on everybody and then a specific 60 to a 100% tariff on China. And, you know, we've kinda gone through this before with president Trump. You know, during his first administration, we had the China section three zero one tariffs on specifically on China, 25% tariffs.

04:27 - 04:54
Jonathan Gold: Part of that was because of, you know, China's acts and policies towards United States and trade. And I think, you know, when you talk about tariffs, tariffs do have an important part to play in trade policy. They can be used correctly when you have, you know, a specific industry who's being disadvantaged. There are lots of different trade rules you can use to help domestic industries if they're being harmed. But the way the tariffs today are being applied are on everything and everyone.

04:54 - 05:17
Jonathan Gold: This administration has moved forwards on tariffs because they think, you know, we're being taken advantage of by so many different countries. They look at the current trade deficit in a negative light even though the fact you've had a trade deficit for, you know, going on fifty years. But it doesn't mean that we're not successful. We're not productive. We're not, you know, winning in in the trade space when you look at how we do on services trade.

05:17 - 05:47
Jonathan Gold: But everything has been tied to that, the trade deficit and trying to to bring that down. So, you know, we've had a number of different tariffs being put in place. And, you know, I know as we'll get into, there's still ongoing uncertainty on those tariffs for a variety of different reasons. But right now, the tariffs are far and wide and hitting, you know, everything and everyone who's importing products into United States, not just finished goods, but also inputs to production, which we know hurt US manufacturers.

05:49 - 06:00
Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. So why do tariffs often sound good politically but they create complex economic consequences?

06:00 - 06:30
Jonathan Gold: Yeah. I think they they sound good because you think you're punishing somebody overseas when that typically is not the case again because it's the importer who who pays that tariff. And the other challenge here too is that eventually, even though it's the US importer who pays, eventually, those costs make their way through the supply chain down to the ultimate consumer. So you do see prices, you know, increase as a result of these tariffs. So, again, when used focused in a strategic manner, they're probably better suited and will hopefully have some strategic gain.

06:30 - 06:34
Jonathan Gold: But the way they're being applied right now, unfortunately, you know, we don't see that as being the case.

06:35 - 07:00
Ginger Craddock: And so let's continue to unpack that the way that tariffs are unfolding now. So let's talk about what's actually playing out on the ground. How are the tariffs impacting businesses, both large, small, trucking, the end consumer. You know, I'm a rancher in Texas. Like, how is this playing out on the ground in today's environment?

07:01 - 07:41
Jonathan Gold: Sure. So, you know, obviously, this all started when, you know, the president took office on on January 20. You know, he there was a lot of expectation that he was gonna put tariffs in place on day one because of how he ran the campaign and the constant talk about about tariffs. We didn't get that on day one. What we did get was the America First Trade Policy memo, which was kind of a pathway to eventually getting to tariffs where the president wanted, you know, all the key administration departments to look at our trade policies, our engagement with our trading partners, what's working, what's not, and then how we can use tariffs and other trade tools to to better align kind of where his thinking on on trade.

07:41 - 08:15
Jonathan Gold: From there, we then got the initial Mexico and Canada tariffs because of fentanyl and border related issues that also included China. They were put in place, then they were delayed for thirty days as they were having negotiations. And then we got they were put in place on Canada. The China tariffs were increased, and then we got a further delay on Mexico, which continues today. And then we had a bit of a another kind of backtrack as they said that anything that qualifies under The US, Canada, Mexico agreement wouldn't be subject to those tariffs.

08:15 - 08:53
Jonathan Gold: So that's roughly about 85 of trade that's not subject to to those tariffs. But then moving forwards, we got in April liberation day, which was the big announcement that president made on the global reciprocal tariffs that was me replaced on everybody. It started as a 10% tariff, and then if everybody remembers the big, you know, chart he rolled out into the Rose Garden that had about six or so countries with higher tariff rates that were gonna take effect a few days later. They then, you know, punted on that for ninety days because, you know, all these countries are gonna come and and negotiate these great trade deals. You know, we were supposed to get 90 deals in ninety days.

08:53 - 09:42
Jonathan Gold: Unfortunately, that didn't occur. We got, you know, a few trade agreements or framework agreements that are still being worked on now. But in addition to those major tariff announcements, we then had a a rash of announcements on sectoral tariff investigations starting with steel and aluminum. And that was a kind of holdover from the first administration where they then increased the tariffs from 25% to 50% and got rid of all the previous exclusions and exemptions that countries have been given. So during the first administration, they had what is known as an exclusion process where you as a company could go and petition to get your specific products off of that list if you provided, you know, some reasoning why, you know, you couldn't make it here or couldn't make wasn't available here in commercial quantities and things like that.

09:42 - 10:17
Jonathan Gold: With the new steel aluminum tariffs, they removed all of that, removed any agreements that the countries had, and just put these, you know, the flat fees back in place and then increase those to 50%. And then from there, we had copper and autos and auto parts. We just had the lumber and furniture and cabinets and vanities tariffs went into effect. We've got ongoing investigations on semiconductors, on a a whole wide variety of different products. They just announced investigations into, personal protective equipment and medical consumables on robotics.

10:17 - 10:32
Jonathan Gold: It's about a dozen or so of these investigations that are more sector specific to put tariffs in place. Again, trying to protect domestic industry. But again, as we know, the downstream impact is that, you know, it tends to hurt the end consumer at the end of the day because those costs get passed on.

10:33 - 11:14
Ginger Craddock: It really does. And so thinking about the trucking industry, we haul all the things that you've mentioned. You know, the in the trucking industry, it's like everything's on a truck at some point in its life cycle to the end consumer. And so thinking about the companies we serve that we are picking freight up from, each of those sectors you mentioned, we've got big rigs backing up, you know, picking up freight for them. So what are you hearing from the retailers and what are you hearing from the carriers in this supply chain?

11:15 - 11:31
Jonathan Gold: Absolutely. So I think the other part on the carriers too is that it's not just the freight that they're carrying, but they just announced new tariffs on heavy trucks. So that, again, is gonna have a big impact on on the trucking industry. You know, they're talking about tariffs on chassis and things like that. So that has another impact on the industry.

11:31 - 11:59
Jonathan Gold: But specifically on on the retailers, I mean, look, retailers use global supply chains to bring, you know, the the best quality products for the the best, you know, most affordable prices for consumers. So anything that impacts that pricing certainly has an impact on retailers and their consumers. You know, retail profit margins are two to 3%. So anything that impacts that certainly is is a challenge. And we've seen that with the tariffs that have been put in place.

11:59 - 12:54
Jonathan Gold: The ongoing uncertainty as tariffs are increased, decreased, delayed, put on hold, just the uncertainty of what's coming next for retailers who are planning their supply chains anywhere from six to nine months in advance, trying to figure out how this tariff policy impacts the products they're bringing in, the pricing of what they're bringing in as retailers look to mitigate the impacts of the tariffs. If, you know, one of the goals stated goals of this administration was for companies to diversify away from China, which was, you know, a goal during the first administration. And many companies took that advice and went to move their products out of China. But then they moved to countries like Vietnam, India, Indonesia, and others who when the, reciprocal tariffs were announced got higher tariff rates than China. So for these companies, like, what what am I why am I making the change then if these other countries are gonna have higher tariff rates than China?

12:55 - 13:25
Jonathan Gold: So you saw some, you know, folks moving back to China. But the challenge in the day is, again, looking at the supply chain, trying to figure out, you know, how and when to order. When we had back in April, the reciprocal, you know, announcements and at that point, the president upped the pressure on China to a 145% because they retaliated against The US. We had many companies who just stopped buying from China because they couldn't afford that tariff rate. That was essentially a ban on Chinese products.

13:25 - 13:54
Jonathan Gold: So you have many small businesses who said, I I can't order because I've got I'm the one stuck with the bill when the product arrives here. I don't have the cash on hand to pay that tariff. So from, you know, the month of April through early May, a lot of folks cut back, if not stopped any ordering from China. And the important part there is that that's when companies are making their holiday decisions. That's when they're ordering all their holiday merchandise that has to come in for beyond the shelves in, you know, November and December for for the winter holidays.

13:54 - 14:22
Jonathan Gold: So that has a significant impact on companies as they're, again, planning, trying to figure out where am I sourcing from, what am I sourcing, how much am I buying. Because one of the challenges here too is that folks are reducing the the quantity and the the types of products they're bringing in. So, you know, we certainly hope that, you know, product will be there on store shelves when consumers go to shopping. The ops options might not be as many as they had thought they were gonna be, but, you know, product will be there. But that's all something folks are thinking about.

14:22 - 14:43
Jonathan Gold: And especially for smaller businesses who don't have the the leverage in the opportunity that the bigger guys do to mitigate mitigate some of these these tariff impacts, it's a real challenge. And we've heard from many of our small businesses who who are really concerned that they're gonna have to close-up shop because they can't afford these increased rates with the the tariffs.

14:44 - 15:27
Ginger Craddock: And the thing that I'm hearing from you is not only the impact of the tariffs and the pain points when they're instituted, but there's this gap that includes chatter of it may be this or it may be that as a business owner or as a real estate investor. Let let's look at real estate. As a business owner, as real estate, I'm projecting out on projects. And so I'm looking at the supply chain for lumber, HVAC, like, you know, the things that come with building commercial developments. So what does it look like in that sector?

15:27 - 15:39
Ginger Craddock: Are these tariffs just related to national security products? Or am I safe with lumber and construction? I think I know the answer to that. Unpack it for me.

15:40 - 16:11
Jonathan Gold: The no. It's certainly the the challenger is is the uncertainty which continues today of knowing kind of what's coming next and just what's in place today. Because, you know, you've got things that happen on social media where the president will make an announcement. You know, he threatened two weeks ago that we're gonna have an additional 100% tariff on China starting on November 1. And then yesterday, we had the the the deal that was made with China where that didn't that's not gonna happen and we're actually gonna reduce the terror the fentanyl related tariffs, but in half.

16:11 - 16:35
Jonathan Gold: But, again, things can happen on a whim. I mean, we have the ongoing fight now with Canada. You know, they ran an ad over the weekend using Ronald Reagan's statements on trade and tariffs, And the president got upset by that and said, we're not gonna hit Canada with an additional 10% tariffs. We don't know if that's gonna take effect, when that's gonna take effect. So trying to plan accordingly makes it extremely difficult to to do that.

16:35 - 17:15
Jonathan Gold: And I think, you know, one of the issues I keep telling my members is, you know, we've gotta wait till we see official documentation, official announcements. You know, just because something is said on social media doesn't mean it's gonna happen at that point in time. You've gotta wait until you see the official White House proclamation or the the deal or something like that before understanding that. And then hopefully, once that comes out, then you quickly get the guidance from US Customs And Border Protection on how this all get actually gets implemented. But part of the challenge is sometimes they'll make an announcement and implementation comes, you know, a day or two later where you haven't had time to adjust and make the the the proper steps to make sure you're you're doing it the right way.

17:15 - 18:02
Jonathan Gold: But again, going back to your question about kind of the national security aspect of this, you know, that's where the section two thirty two tariffs come into effect because they're really supposed to be used for national security purposes. But as we saw with the steel aluminum tariffs and how they do this, what they call the inclusion process, where companies can petition to have their products placed on the list, domestic industries petition to get their products on the list. The expansion of the HTS lines that are covered go well beyond what's there for national security purposes. I mean, this latest round where they're looking at, they're talking about, you know, canned food products being subject to these additional tariffs, which, you know, again, why is that a national security thing? And then going back again, we just had the lumber and furniture tariffs that were announced.

18:03 - 18:18
Jonathan Gold: Again, is upholstered furniture a national security threat? Are bathroom vanities and kitchen cabinets a national security threat? You know, I would argue no. But that's, you know, kind of where this administration is is going with some of these tariffs. And there's there's more to come.

18:18 - 18:20
Jonathan Gold: You know, we certainly know that that's the case.

18:20 - 18:41
Ginger Craddock: And when I think about other goods and services that we're hauling in the trucking industry, you know, I and I'm a Texan. Big, big in Texas is we're we're hauling fuel and gas. Mhmm. Most fuel and gas companies in Texas have partnerships in Canada. Also, the beef industry.

18:41 - 19:01
Ginger Craddock: So what kind of chatter, what things are you hearing related to those products? Because, typically, this administration has been friendly to Texas, and there's been some similar mindset. But that's not what I'm hearing at the feed store recently related to cattle. My ranching neighbors Right. Are not happy.

19:02 - 19:34
Jonathan Gold: Right. So, you know, one of the things that we haven't talked about yet is obviously the the impact on US exports, you know, primarily, you know, ag and and beef and and others. And the challenge there is that when we put these high tariffs on our trading partners, they then turn around and retaliate against The United States, you know, especially China where, you know, they stopped buying soybeans for, you know, a long period of time. Just yesterday, they announced they're gonna buy now because of the the deal. But, you know, the soybean farmers were were in real bad shape early on because they weren't buying Chinese weren't buying.

19:34 - 19:57
Jonathan Gold: They went to Brazil to buy soybeans as as opposed to United States. You know, there's recent discussions now on the the beef issue where we're gonna import Argentinian beef into United States to address beef prices. And I know the cattlemen were not happy about that. And I think most of these these folks, you know, our exporters wanna get markets overseas. And what these tariffs do unfortunately is a retaliation.

19:57 - 20:21
Jonathan Gold: It shuts off some of those markets overseas. And while there are some discussions of, you know, giving a a bailout or something to to these exporters, you know, I know they would prefer the market overseas as opposed to getting, you know, a bailout back here at home. Because the challenge is once you lose that market overseas, it's very difficult to get it back. And we've seen that time and time again.

20:21 - 20:37
Ginger Craddock: Yeah. Customer acquisition, no matter what business you're in, customer acquisition is one is a big expense. And it's a whole lot easier to retain a customer and serve a customer and deepen that relationship than it is to lose and get somebody new. You yes. Yes.

20:37 - 20:39
Ginger Craddock: Yes. Yes. From a business standpoint.

20:39 - 21:02
Jonathan Gold: The other impact too on on the farmers too, it's, you know, not just on the export side, but, you know, on the import side, think about, you know, all the equipment needs they have and the price impact to equipment that now is is we're seeing with, you know, equipment becoming more expensive, the parts and components becoming more expensive, fertilizer becoming more expensive, all because of the the tariffs. So they're kinda getting hit on that double whammy, unfortunately.

21:03 - 21:30
Ginger Craddock: Yes. And my ranching neighbors were struggling with the expenses of fertilizer way before tariffs entered the conversation, and they're like, we're not gonna be able to run cattle anymore because our supplies are outpacing what we can get for a head of beef. And so they kinda like in the trucking industry, freight rates versus hauling, there's a lot of constriction in multiple industries.

21:30 - 21:54
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21:55 - 22:01
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22:01 - 22:29
Ginger Craddock: So, Jon, you've done a great job of helping us kinda see big picture pain points. Let's and and how it impacts all everybody along the chain is impacted. So now let's pivot and let's talk about mitigation strategies. So you've been working closely with businesses through the National Retail Federation. What are some ways that companies are trying to mitigate the impact of tariffs?

22:30 - 22:56
Jonathan Gold: Sure. So, you know, one of the things that we've we've been doing is we made sure our members were, you know, kind of fully up to date, up to speed, and kind of what was coming and what was gonna happen. You know, even prior to the election, we started talking about the tariffs just because the ongoing threat of what candidate Trump had been talking about with the tariffs. So people were kinda gearing up again for that day one tariff executive order, you know, on January 20. I think there was relief when it didn't happen.

22:57 - 23:13
Jonathan Gold: But in advance of that, you know, companies really started looking at their supply chains, and and they've been doing that for a while. But, you know, trying to take a look at, you know, can they diversify away from from China? Folks have been trying to do that. I mean, the challenge that that takes time. It's not something that can be done overnight.

23:13 - 23:40
Jonathan Gold: It takes, you know, months, if not years, to find a new supplier, make sure they are who they say they are, they can meet your needs as a company, capacity, quality, and everything else, but also making sure that, you know, the country you're going to, do they have the sufficient infrastructure to handle kind of the increase in in in cargo flows? You know, the the roads, rails, are they adequate? Are the ports adequate? Can they handle the larger vessels? Do they get regular rotations?

23:40 - 24:11
Jonathan Gold: Things like that. So that all takes time to to figure out as well as doing your quality control and testing for, you know, make sure things comply with US US law. The other piece too is that a lot of companies decided to try and front load as much as possible their products to get ahead of the the tariffs. That's one of the reasons why you've seen kind of elevated imports since the end of last year kind of through the summer. You've seen, you know, higher import rates again because folks are trying to get product into to get in front of the tariffs.

24:11 - 24:40
Jonathan Gold: Now granted towards the end of last year, you saw some of that because of the labor negotiations on the East Coast and Gulf Coast where, you know, we did go through a strike for a few days and then the threat of striking it in January. But so that adds that as well. But that was probably the biggest thing that that folks were looking at was front loading, getting as much product here as possible. Again, we ran into a challenge in April when the Chinese tariffs jumped up to a 145%. So you saw Chinese trade drop significantly during that time frame.

24:40 - 25:12
Jonathan Gold: And then when that tariff was was taken off and brought back down to 30%, you saw the trade take off again as folks were given this ninety day window to prime get stuff in as much as possible. Folks started to try and utilize bonded warehouses and free trade zones to hold product until they needed it. So and that impacts your commercial real estate as folks looking at, you know, putting more and more stuff into warehouses. So that that had an impact. Obviously, you know, the bigger companies have more leverage and ability to do things like that unlike smaller guys.

25:13 - 25:36
Jonathan Gold: One of the things too that we saw was that a lot of companies kinda absorb the cost of the tariffs initially. Part of that is because there was the the up and down and just the keeping it at about the 10 level. So companies were able to to do that. But in doing that, it's hitting their bottom line. They're not able to further invest in their company, invest in their people, things like that.

25:36 - 25:53
Jonathan Gold: The smaller guys, you know, don't have that ability. They can't absorb all that cost. They've got to look at passing that along. And I think what you're gonna start to see now, and you're already seeing this, is that you're starting to see inflation tick up again. You're starting to see prices rise again because companies are starting to pass along some of those costs.

25:53 - 26:08
Jonathan Gold: It's not a straight pass through because, you companies are trying to figure out what will the consumer be able to absorb, how much more can they absorb, can they work with their vendors overseas to see if they can get better deals. But those costs get passed all the way through the supply chain.

26:09 - 26:41
Ginger Craddock: They absolutely do. And and part of the mitigation strategy also includes conversations that you and your team are having with legislators on Capitol Hill. As we record this episode, the government is still shut down. How does that impact your ability to mitigate in that way, having those conversations on behalf of the companies that you're representing in the retail sector?

26:42 - 27:14
Jonathan Gold: Absolutely. That is a critical issue that we've been working on. I mean, that's one of our primary jobs as an advocacy organization trying to educate lawmakers, administration, other public officials, and consumers about, you know, the retail industry as a whole. One the things that we've been doing is bringing in businesses to Washington DC to educate lawmakers on the impact of the tariffs. We actually had a a fly in that was scheduled for April 2, Liberation Day, completely unrelated to the tariff announcement.

27:14 - 27:40
Jonathan Gold: You know, it was planned months in advance just to talk about retail and small businesses and mainstream retailers. And we had to pivot very quickly because it was on the same day as the tariff announcement. So we did a, you know, a press availability with some small retailers talking about the impact of tariffs on them before the president made his his announcement and then spent the whole next day up on Capitol Hill talking to lawmakers the concerns and the impacts. And we've been doing that once a month since then. We've had six different fly ins.

27:40 - 28:02
Jonathan Gold: We had our latest one last week where we brought in 15 small businesses to talk to legislators about the impacts they're feeling and and impacts on their businesses, their employees, and their customers. You noted that the government is still in a shutdown. Even with the shutdown, you know, staff are still up on Capitol Hill. So we had the ability to meet with staff. The senate is still open and in business.

28:02 - 28:40
Jonathan Gold: We had opportunity to meet with some key senators as well in key committees. We've also brought folks in both small and medium and large to meet with key White House officials to talk about the tariffs and to make sure they fully understand how the tariffs work, how they apply to retail, what strategies retailers are are using to mitigate. The But fact end of the day is that, you know, it it does get passed along to the consumer. They're trying to, you know, suppress that as much as possible, but, you know, it's it's gonna happen. So making sure that legislators have the stories, it can share those with the White House when they're looking for the impacts, what they hear from their constituents, which we think is critical.

28:40 - 28:56
Jonathan Gold: The other thing too is that it's not just about visiting in DC, but it's, you know, when the legislators are back home, making sure you're having conversations with them, bringing them into your facilities, your stores, your warehouses, and really explain to them, this is what the tariff means to us. You know, they so they can visualize it and really see it and understand what those impacts are.

28:57 - 29:57
Ginger Craddock: And that's a key thing that I really want our audience to hear is I had the opportunity to do my first call on Washington with TCA, the Truckload Carriers Association. And one thing that they said in in prepping us is they said, the people that you're gonna be meeting with today are going to be eager to meet with you because your business owners, your truck drivers, your you are their constituents. They want to hear from you. They want to have conversations with you. And one thing that I just wanna share with our audience is that was one of the most incredible experiences of my life is I actually had the opportunity to be there and be I had a I got to participate in a total of seven meetings that day with my team, and it included both sides of the aisle, the d's and the r's.

29:57 - 30:16
Ginger Craddock: And can I tell you both sides were curious? They wanted to know what our opinion was. And we had thoughtful conversations throughout the day. And the day that that we were there was the day the government shut down and so shut down. And so we were walking it was surreal.

30:16 - 30:26
Ginger Craddock: We were walking off of Capitol Hill with the staffers, and they're like, yeah. We'll see you tomorrow. Like, we're gonna continue working. This isn't our first dance. We know this.

30:26 - 30:58
Ginger Craddock: And then as I exited Capitol Hill, there was this small noise that was just really, really loud. Well, when I saw it on the TV, it looked like something really big and it was really tiny. And so being boots on the ground, what happened that day and in my experience was not what got projected out in the media. And so what I wanna hear peep I I want people to hear what you're saying and what I'm saying. Get involved.

30:59 - 31:17
Ginger Craddock: Your legislators want to hear from you, and they'll have respectful conversations with you because they do desire to serve. And that was my experience on both sides. So not all the noise and chatter. We can make a difference with advocacy. Please get involved.

31:18 - 31:32
Jonathan Gold: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, is critical that lawmakers hear from their constituents on on what's happening on the ground. That's the only way that they learn. It's not intimidating like some people think it might be, you know, going up to Capitol Hill and you're, you know, nervous meeting with a member of congress.

31:33 - 31:54
Jonathan Gold: Know, more likely you're gonna meet with their staff. And, oh, by the way, the staff is probably some 20 year old. But doesn't mean they're not important because the staff are the ones who help inform the congressman, congresswoman about the issue and kinda where their constituents are. So, again, you don't just have to do the advocacy in DC but when they're back home, they all have district offices. They all have state offices.

31:54 - 32:23
Jonathan Gold: Invite them into your place of business and really sit down with them and explain to them and let them see what this all means. Coming to DC is great but, you know, you don't have to do that to advocate. You know, they'll all hold town well, not all, but some will hold town hall meetings, show up, and participate. I know they can get on the rowdy with some other issues, but these are important issues the members need to hear Send an email, send a letter, do a phone call. There are multiple ways you can can get engaged and talk to your members of Congress.

32:23 - 32:30
Jonathan Gold: It's really, really important they hear from from you and understand what you're feeling, what you're seeing, and the impact on your business.

32:31 - 32:56
Ginger Craddock: A 100%. And to your point about meeting with the staffers, oh my goodness. These are talented, knowledgeable, educated. I cannot say enough about this next generation of young professionals that are participating in government. Like, this they were just excellent to have conversations with.

32:56 - 33:08
Ginger Craddock: And so don't be deterred if they are young. Like like, it is not the stereotype that you might think. I found every conversation thoughtful. They were knowledgeable. They were well informed.

33:08 - 33:43
Ginger Craddock: They asked good questions. Also, if they had a difference of point of view than what we were presenting, they also shared this is what my representative thinks on this issue. And it was just very respectful. Like, again, I can't say enough about it. And then to your point about getting involved at home, I got a text message yesterday from senator John Cornyn saying I'm holding a town hall meeting because, you know, he wants to show the constituents government shut down, but I'm working.

33:43 - 34:31
Ginger Craddock: And so when I got that text, I processed it a little bit differently because of my recent experience on Capitol Hill and just seeing the importance of advocacy and their openness to have conversations and their desire to hear from real business owners, real truck drivers, real, you know, people that are in the supply chain handling safety. They wanna talk to the people doing the work. And so I'm hammering this because I want our audience to hear their voice matters. And what one thing can you do to advocate or tell your story from your point of view to help them make better decisions, more informed decisions?

34:31 - 34:55
Jonathan Gold: No. Absolutely. And, again, we've had a number of small businesses come to town who've never done it before. And the experience they've had is similar to what you you described. You know, they they have now become some of our greatest advocates and are out there, you know, talking to the press, talking to the media, talking to their friends and neighbors, and encouraging them to get engaged as well, Organizing their own groups back in at home for folks to go and have those conversations as well.

34:55 - 34:59
Jonathan Gold: So it is a it is an important part of this this whole process.

35:00 - 35:18
Ginger Craddock: It really, really is. And so when they first said that they're gonna be eager to see you, I thought, oh, they're just talking us up because we're new, and then they genuinely were. So this is the reality. They're eager to have these conversations. So let's shift now to what's next.

35:19 - 35:42
Ginger Craddock: If there's one thing that we've learned, it's that tariffs don't disappear with a change in administration. Because, you know, that's that's one of the questions as me as a business owner. If administration changes, is that gonna change tariffs? So one side may add them, but the other rarely removes them. Why is that?

35:42 - 35:44
Ginger Craddock: I was surprised by this, John.

35:46 - 36:10
Jonathan Gold: Yeah. So there there are a number of different reasons. You know, if you look back over the last two, you know, administrations when president Biden ran, you know, as candidate Biden, he talked about the harm of the tariffs from the first Trump administration. You know, he talked about especially the retaliation, the impact on the farmers and said that, you know, the tariffs are bad and they'll, you know, they need to go away. Once he got into office, that didn't happen.

36:10 - 36:40
Jonathan Gold: The China tariffs stayed in place and they actually increased them in in some areas. Part of that is just the the political pressure from different parties, different constituencies. Obviously, you know, from domestic industry, hearing from labor, you know, being supportive of the tariffs, they they kept those Chinese tariffs off. And, you know, unclear what happens in the next election as to kind of who who comes in and what their policies are gonna be. You know, the bigger question on tariffs in general is, you know, why has congress not stepped up?

36:41 - 37:26
Jonathan Gold: Because it is congress's authority to deal with tariffs. That is, you know, their deals to to be able to to do tariff things on tariffs. And congress has been reluctant to to take action either last administration or this administration. Obviously, we've got the supreme court case right now that is we're gonna oral arguments are scheduled for November 5 to talk about the legality of tariffs under what is known as IEPA, the international economic emergency economic powers act, which is how the president has put some of these tariffs into place. The administration has lost the two lower court decisions and is now to the supreme court to make a determination on to whether or not the IEPA tariffs on Canada, Mexico, and China and the reciprocal global tariffs are legal or not.

37:26 - 37:55
Jonathan Gold: If not, if the Supreme Court upholds those decisions, then, you know, the tariffs will be struck down. There's a question as to whether or not, you know, refunds will occur and how they will occur and will it be easier or not for companies to get refunds. But we know the administration is gonna look for other options for tariff authorities because, you know, this president likes tariffs. I mean, there's no question about that. They've got a variety of different authorities they can use, like the section two thirty two, the sectoral tariffs that we talked about.

37:55 - 38:09
Jonathan Gold: They've got things like section three zero one, which are on country countrywide tariffs. That's what we've done on China. There's now an investigation, you know, three o investigation on Brazil. And they've got other tariffs they can use for so this balance of payments. It's section one twenty two.

38:09 - 38:42
Jonathan Gold: It's a little more limited because it's a cap of 15% for a hundred and fifty days, and then they'd have to get congressional approval to keep those tariffs in place. I don't know the congress in midterm elections gonna vote in favor of tariff increase, but we'll see. Obviously, that's gonna depend upon the economy and everything else that that's going on. So, you know, tariffs are could be here for a little while. And I think part of the challenge too, you know, Ginger, one of things we didn't talk about is just the revenue of the tariffs raise and, you know, how this administration views that that revenue.

38:42 - 38:57
Jonathan Gold: You know, when they talk about why tariffs, it's a variety of reasons. It's, you know, to get out of China. It's a negotiating tool. And you look at what the president got this past week in Asia with the different agreements that were were announced. It's bring manufacturing back to United States.

38:57 - 39:12
Jonathan Gold: You know, that's a lot of a goal, but, you know, what are we talking about? Are we talking about everything? Are we gonna focus on kinda high-tech defense industrial base, which I think we'd all support? But we can't make everything here for a wide variety of reasons. And then that final piece is the revenue.

39:13 - 39:31
Jonathan Gold: And the tariffs are bringing in billions of dollars a month. You know, the the the administration touts the record breaking tariffs that are coming in every month. But again, they're not saying it's paid by US importers. Notice that it's a tax on US import, US companies. So in the challenge that folks get addicted to the revenue.

39:31 - 39:44
Jonathan Gold: So, you know, it's very difficult once tariffs are put in place to actually take them back off. We actually still have tariffs in place from the Smoot Hawley era. It should have been very challenging to get some of those tariffs to to come off again because of that revenue.

39:45 - 40:36
Ginger Craddock: And my background is in education, and so I'm gonna make a a teacher analogy. When we talk about the government being addicted to the revenue no matter which side of the aisle, and it's not it's not likely that somebody's gonna pick up the banner and and cut that if they don't have to, think about in our own individual checkbooks and savings accounts. As our income and earnings go up, are we likely to self select and reduce our income? And so I think when we ask a question like that of ourselves, it helps us be more respectful and objective. You know, it's not the boogeyman or the government.

40:36 - 41:21
Ginger Craddock: It's like, how can we have thoughtful conversations with other people trying to do their job and try to get these numbers brought down? You know, what where are the points of consensus that are gonna be better for the end user, for trucking, for all the people in the supply chain? And it comes from individual conversations and being a part of the process. So two words that I hear in everything we've talked about and see if my two words land with you, continued uncertainty, no matter which way we go.

41:22 - 41:36
Jonathan Gold: No. Absolutely. It's just there's so much still out there that we just don't know. And, things can change on a daily basis as we as we've seen, whether it's new investigations that are coming up. A lot's gonna depend upon what happens with the supreme court as well.

41:37 - 42:13
Jonathan Gold: You know, what happens in the midterm elections next year and, you know, what congress will do if they'll do anything, but just the ongoing uncertainty of to you know, what happens next on the tariffs. And, you know, if country x decides to retaliate or say something not nice, then they end up with a higher tariff. It's unclear. And then how quickly those those changes take effect as well is is is a challenge too. And that's the biggest part of the uncertainty is just not knowing when these changes will occur or how quickly it will occur, knowing that this administration is really ramping up on enforcement on some of these issues as well.

42:13 - 42:26
Jonathan Gold: So making sure your customs compliance really is in lockstep and, you know, you've got everything kind of you know everything that's going on and you can, you know, have a somewhat clean supply chain to understand all the risks that are out there.

42:26 - 42:47
Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And I can see the significance of your customs background before you made this transition. So, again, the depth of knowledge that you bring to this. So as we wrap up, how should trucking and retail leaders prepare for this continued uncertainty?

42:48 - 43:11
Jonathan Gold: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is to try and continue to think forwards. Look at how you are diversifying your supply chain. Work with your your vendor base, not just the folks who are making your products, but your transportation providers as well. So they're fully up to speed on what your plans are, and they understand what's gonna need to happen, especially if have to be nimble and pivot quickly as some announcements are made.

43:11 - 43:31
Jonathan Gold: So I think that that ongoing dialogue is really, really important both inside the organization as well as outside with all of your supply chain partners. It's it's really important they fully understand what's at stake for your company, but also so they understand from the trucking perspective what it means for for you as well. So that that dialogue is really, really important.

43:31 - 43:44
Ginger Craddock: It absolutely is. And so we've talked about the need for advocacy. What does that look like for everyday business owners, for drivers, for fleet managers?

43:45 - 44:09
Jonathan Gold: Yeah. I think it's it's it's fairly simple. I mean, it sounds ominous and, you know, it's, you know, scary, but really it's it's getting engaged. It's as easy as sending an email to your member of congress and letting them know what you're you're feeling, engaging with different trade associations who are engaged with these issues. Most of them have different letter writing campaigns where you can sign your your name to a letter, send your own letter.

44:09 - 44:27
Jonathan Gold: I know we we have it here through NRF, an easy tool for companies to, you know, send their story to their member of congress. Participate in the town halls, invite members of congress and their staff into your facilities. Again, it's it's fairly easy. I think members of congress love to go to facilities. It's great photo op photo ops for them if you're willing to allow them to do that.

44:28 - 44:46
Jonathan Gold: But it's it's really important to get to know your member of congress and make sure they understand the impacts, not just on the tariffs, but any of the issues they're working through that they know what it is. So they can lean on you also when things are coming up before congress. They'll reach out to you and say, hey, what do you think about this? How is this going to impact you? Is this good, bad, indifferent?

44:46 - 44:49
Jonathan Gold: It's important to get those, you know, get those relationships on the books.

44:50 - 45:51
Ginger Craddock: It it really is. And so one thing that I'd like to add as we wrap up is I have found the value in connecting with advocacy groups because like TCA, like the Retail Federation, you guys have already honed talking points that you know are likely to move the individual parts of the industry forward around things that we've got consensus on. And so the thing that I would say also is get involved with one advocacy group that is relative to your industry. And I think what you will find like I did is they've got clear talking points that then I'm in my business running my business every day and doing the work. But when I set aside that day for advocacy because we can all set a day or a half a day aside for advocacy or an evening for a meeting.

45:52 - 46:11
Ginger Craddock: Those talking points make the meeting easier for me and also helps move the bigger picture forward. And they wanna hear my perspective on that talking point. And so that's something we all can do and there are tools to make that easy for each of us.

46:11 - 46:26
Jonathan Gold: Yeah. I would just I would just add, you know, it's great to have the talking points, but really what they want to hear is kind of your own story. So you've got to make it, you know, your own. They don't want hear the, you know, this, you know, this spouted talking about, it's like, what does this actually mean to me? Tell your story.

46:26 - 46:38
Jonathan Gold: That's what is most important to these folks that in your own words, what does it mean? The talking point can kinda get you to where you need to go, but really is tell your story because they really wanna hear from from you on, you know, what this means at the end of the day.

46:38 - 46:54
Ginger Craddock: A 100%. A 100%. So, John, this has been insightful. Thank you for helping us see how something as complex as tariffs, it connects all the way from Congress to the consumer, which is every one of us.

46:55 - 47:06
Jonathan Gold: No. Absolutely, Ginger. I appreciate the opportunity to come on today and have the conversation. Certainly encourage everyone listening to stay informed, stay engaged, and and speak up where you can. It's really important to to be engaged.

47:07 - 47:22
Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. So from the supply chain to the dinner table, tariffs touch every mile of American business. For more episodes like this, subscribe to the Hire Truckers podcast, and let's keep moving forward together.

47:22 - 47:35
Aaron Craddock: Thank you for joining us today. Our goal with the Hire Truckers podcast is to provide industry insights, marketing trends, and motivation to level up your recruiting game. If we added value, take a few seconds to share this with your network. Have a great week.