Hire Truckers Podcast

00:00 - 00:20
Marina Ivanov: But that should never be the reason why drivers leave. When you look at the reasons drivers look for a new job, it's pay, equipment, home time, and the way they're being treated. No matter how good the pay is or how great the equipment is or the home time, if the driver is repeatedly disrespected, most of the time they will leave to find something else. They don't have to put up with that.

00:36 - 00:41
Ginger Craddock: Marina, you said drivers are the backbone of Apex. In a

00:41 - 01:10
Marina Ivanov: market where every fleet says it values its drivers, what does a company actually have to do to prove it? Great question, Ginger. There's so many ways that a company can actually prove that they care for their driver that goes beyond words. At Apex Transit, it is what we do from the little thing to the big things, like the kind of truck that you drive, how we spec it, how we talk to the driver. Every little thing matters, and there's so many different ways.

01:10 - 01:23
Marina Ivanov: And really, what it comes down to is culture. What is your belief about drivers? How do you see your driver? Is it a way to make revenue? Is it butt in the seat?

01:23 - 01:41
Marina Ivanov: Or is it an actual human being with a family, goals, dreams, that is trying to survive or provide for their family? And it needs to be seen as an individual, not as just replaceable butt in the seat. And I'd love to go in deeper on that if you if this is the time.

01:42 - 02:05
Ginger Craddock: Oh, I can hear in your response that you grew up around trucking. Absolutely. This runs more than just a culture message for you. Something that I know is that your father was an owner operator, and your husband was a driver. I I can hear that in how you answered and how you built your company.

02:06 - 02:13
Ginger Craddock: So how has seeing trucking from the driver side shaped the company that you've built?

02:14 - 02:42
Marina Ivanov: It really is the reason why we have the company. It is driver focused, driver built, built by a driver. So it started from the way we spec our trucks and the kind of equipment that our drivers have. I have an interesting story where our dealer came to us and said, you know, you keep buying these really nice trucks with, you know, the nice, comfortable, ergonomic seats with back cycling and heated and cooled seats. It might seem like a small thing, but it goes a long way.

02:42 - 02:57
Marina Ivanov: You spec it with dynamic steering to make sure that your drivers are safe during those situations where they need it. You're including all the safety equipment, and you're going above and beyond on the comforts of the truck. Is this for owner operators? No. Like, this is for our company drivers.

02:57 - 03:37
Marina Ivanov: Because the person, the one of the founders sat in that seat for eleven hours. He understands what it's like to be on the road. He knows what it's like to be out in traffic and how important the equipment is. So starting from specing the trucks in the way that is designed for driver comfort and not necessarily for cutting costs, At the end of the day, all of those costs will be made up in the driver retention and recruiting that we have. So going from that, and then going back to being around my dad being a driver, my husband being a driver, the way the drivers are spoken to, whether it is from my team or from my customers or anyone who is interacting with my drivers is really important for me.

03:37 - 04:11
Marina Ivanov: And so it starts from culture where I've had situations where a driver might do something that is not necessarily smart. There's a lot of ways, but categorizing all drivers as idiots or being upset in an environment and creating a negative connotation towards a driver bothers me personally. And it starts from the culture of the team where we value and respect the driver from the way we talk about them when they're not in the room. Our driver is our customer. Without that driver, we will not deliver freight.

04:12 - 04:27
Marina Ivanov: It is our truly the number one priority is to make sure our trucks are seated by keeping our drivers happy. And so it's everything is energy, right? There's energy underneath how you operate. You can have the best marketing. You can have all the slogans.

04:27 - 04:56
Marina Ivanov: This is our family, blah, blah, blah. But until you actually live it energetically and you breathe it and you actually believe that yourself from everyone on the ground, you will not be able to translate that to the driver. They can feel how the company feels about them. Is that making sense, Ginger? Like, I hope that made sense because that's the best way for me to explain what having my dad and my husband as a driver has done for us here at Apex is we understand that plight and we start with the basic human decency of respect.

04:56 - 05:02
Marina Ivanov: Like we respect you as a driver, as a human, and we're going to provide the necessary equipment for you to get your job done right.

05:03 - 05:53
Ginger Craddock: It makes complete sense. And I thought my parents did a really good job of educating me on respecting commercial drivers on the road as a just a personal vehicle driver. But then when I got into trucking and I did my first ride along with a company driver, I, from that day forward, will always refer to commercial truck drivers as professional truck drivers. I was wowed by how Daryl took care of the customer, how he took care of his truck. My husband is a high level executive in health care, and he's a bit OCD.

05:54 - 06:44
Ginger Craddock: And I gave Daryl the highest compliment that I could give him. I said, Daryl, the inside of your truck looks like the executive office of my husband. Like, his attention to detail and how he had his curated workspace within the cab of that truck, and it was a company driver truck. It was impeccable. And then as I went through the day and saw how he handled customers and how he worked with his internal team, your messaging about the professionalism and how they drivers should be treated, I wanna amplify that from the highest hilltops.

06:44 - 07:30
Ginger Craddock: I wanna change the narrative of what it looks like to be a commercial professional truck driver because the majority of them out there are doing incredible work, and there's new drivers who wanna be a part of something bigger than themselves. And so as you are deliberately positioning yourself in that lane that's driver focused, what does taking care of the driver mean operationally? You've touched on the quality of the truck and the approach to that next level in a company truck. But what does it mean operationally and not as a slogan, but in the decisions you make every day operationally?

07:30 - 08:01
Marina Ivanov: That's a great question. And that's the other side of the question, provide them the great truck. The other part of the equation is to make sure that you can help them make a sustainable living. Sustainable in that they can keep it up, and in that it takes into effect their health, their family, and their environment, and what's important to that driver. So we've done things a little bit differently at Apex is that we have created like mini pods of fleet managers where they'll have 10 to 12 drivers.

08:01 - 08:26
Marina Ivanov: We've done it different ways. We've done it through like, you know, planners and dispatchers and different levels. I've found that this to be the most effective way in building a port with the driver because that fleet manager is responsible for everything with that driver. And it's small enough where it's not so spread out that you can't keep track and can't under can't keep build a personal relationship with each driver. So it starts with the fleet managers and how they are connected.

08:26 - 08:45
Marina Ivanov: So they meet their new drivers face to face every single time. And they'll get to learn let's say interview. You get to learn the driver and you get to learn the dispatcher. The report is built immediately, and then they'll follow-up with them pretty consistently. And then it goes as as far as to understand the driver's driving preferences, night driver.

08:45 - 09:13
Marina Ivanov: Are they wanting to be home on Sunday so they can go to church? Well, are they coming back Friday? What are the the necessary requirements that this driver needs to have a sustainable career? Because there are a lot of companies out there who will bring a driver on and think about how much they can squeeze out of them and are never taking the time to understand what is it that they need to be successful. So that's the number one thing that we do is by taking care of the driver, is understanding their needs and working within them.

09:13 - 09:43
Marina Ivanov: There's the mindset of like, this is the job, you do it, whether you like it or not, and you can leave. That's one way of doing business, but then you're better just be rotating through drivers. When you can make it work for someone, that shows them that you are a company that they wanna be loyal to. And that's what retention is retained because they care, they value and respect my needs to be home every Saturday for my son's basketball game, or whatever it could be. That driver is now committed and is not looking for other jobs because they know that you'll respect their time.

09:43 - 10:16
Marina Ivanov: So that to me is number one thing, taking care of the driver is respecting their time, valuing their time, and giving them what they need. And at the same time, making sure that it is sustainable in terms of pay rise. We find a way to work it out. Like drivers get paid per mile. If there are shorter runs that will hurt them but help the company, we have our fleet managers given the flexibility to work with the driver to offer incentives or bonuses to help make up for whatever the losses could be, so they can have a sustainable check where they know how much they're bringing in on a weekly basis.

10:18 - 10:51
Ginger Craddock: That's incredible. So how do you balance the driver need and preferences? Because across 10 drivers or a 100 drivers, it's gonna vary driver to driver. How are you able to balance that focus on serving the driver and having them home when it works best for them, the type of routes that are best with them with your freight lanes. So there are some structure within freight lanes that demand certain in and out times.

10:51 - 11:00
Ginger Craddock: And so how do you strike that balance between serving your freight lanes and your existing freight with the drivers?

11:00 - 11:21
Marina Ivanov: It is a very delicate balance, but it can be done. It's going back to the fleet managers because they know the drivers individually. They know when we bring to have a brand, a new lane that comes up or as things shift, like right now I just hired a driver that lives in High Point, North Carolina. I'm like, Oh, that's perfect. I'm having lunch with a customer at High Point.

11:21 - 11:58
Marina Ivanov: I'm like, I'll get you a more freight out of that location so you can pick it up, you know, Sunday night, there's a drop trailer. You're the one that's going to be running that lane. So it's, we're small enough, we're under 90, like right around 90 trucks right now, where it's, you know, still possible for us to have that individualization with the fleet managers that we have. And it is sometimes challenging because, like you said, we have certain requirements, but then we know that we recruit certain type of driver for those requirements. So if it goes back to recruiting and looking at the current pool and finding a way to make it work for all the drivers.

11:58 - 12:10
Marina Ivanov: It's not, it's getting, it gets harder as you get, add more trucks and it becomes more of a challenge to find those. But I do believe when there's a will, there's a way. If you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to make it work.

12:11 - 13:06
Ginger Craddock: And I believe to your point that the things that you're working out as a smaller carrier, I do believe there are ways to scale. And because I look at where you guys started with your dad being a driver and then your husband being a driver, you understand what it means to scale to get to where you are now. And each opportunity to scale to the next level as a leader has a different set of challenges, a different set of opportunities. And I'm gonna be interested to continue to follow your journey because I believe that your fleet is gonna continue to grow. And just from what I've already seen from your fleet and that that you're gonna work sort some of these pieces out.

13:06 - 13:42
Ginger Craddock: And and there are some larger companies that do this really well and have it built into their DNA and their culture. And so I'm excited to unpack this a little bit more with you. So when we think about fleets, I wanna think about misunderstandings. So what do fleets misunderstand about why good drivers leave? Is it primarily pay, or are the bigger issues communication, respect, home time, equipment, and trust?

13:42 - 13:48
Ginger Craddock: Because I think the answer to this is part of making this work and part of making it scale.

13:48 - 14:12
Marina Ivanov: Absolutely. And I've I've thought about that question and I looked back at our list of drivers why they leave. And I'll be honest with you, it's a little bit of both. For pay, it's we've lost some drivers because right now there's a lot of competition sign on bonuses. There's companies offering more than what we were paying.

14:12 - 14:32
Marina Ivanov: And it's one of those kind of promises broke. I've been in recruiting since 2019. I've hired drivers. I currently have a team that does that, but I've seen the promises and I know what it's like. And it is very tempting for a driver when they think about, my gosh, if we just come here, it's like a $10,000 and then they don't read the fine print.

14:32 - 14:49
Marina Ivanov: Right. And that I have lost drivers to pay. When it comes to home time, communication, all of that, I will do as much as I can with my team to make sure that those are not the reasons why the drivers leave. Sometimes it will happen. Not everyone is perfect.

14:49 - 15:11
Marina Ivanov: There will be some miscommunication. Tensions rise high in in trucking. Things will happen that are automatic, that are just not something that we can control at that moment. And that's the reality of the situation. But as long as you make it a your priority to avoid that from happening where it's an exception, not the rule, My drivers don't leave me because of home time because we honor their home time requests.

15:12 - 15:35
Marina Ivanov: They don't leave us because we don't treat them or we don't communicate. Communication is super important. That's why we have multiple sources. They don't have they have an advocate, a driver advocate or driver relations manager who is who was in their seat, who was a driver, has been with Apex for almost ten years and understands what it's like to be able to choose. They're the he's the first point of contact for any kind of escalations and issues.

15:35 - 16:07
Marina Ivanov: He's got a great relationship with the fleet management side. If there's any miscommunication, he's the first person to bring it up, mediate it, and we find a way to move forward. But that should never be the reason why drivers leave. And it happens, when you look at the reasons drivers look for a new job, it's pay, equipment, home time, and the way they're being treated. No matter how good the pay is or how great the equipment is or the home time, if the driver is repeatedly disrespected, most of the time they will leave to find something else.

16:07 - 16:28
Marina Ivanov: They don't have to put up with that. So as a fleet, we have direct control over that one aspect. And if that's the one thing that you are not monitoring every single day and watching what happens and how the drivers feel, that's where there's a leak and then loss that as a fleet, you're missing out on some potential for retention and recruitment.

16:29 - 17:49
Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And one of the things that came up at the recent TCA refrigerated event is at a roundtable discussion, executive leaders of fleets were having a conversation about around pay. And they're like, as the driver market continues to compress and rates go up, part of the conversation was many of them around the table felt like and articulated that they expected to see multiple pay raises in q four and that it would be the competition of the pay raise. And at the end of the day, as a business owner, it has to make sense on the p and l and and for us to stay in business and provide meaningful job opportunities for the team members that we serve that are a part of our companies from operations to professional drivers, all those pieces. And so the elite fleets are putting their foot on the gas pedal in outside of the box solutions that better serve the professional drivers.

17:50 - 18:37
Ginger Craddock: And you're already ahead of the curve because it's built in to your DNA. So along that line, something that we know about trucking and the freight market is it goes up and down, up and down, up and down. So it's unexpected how long the most recent downturn was. So what did you guys invest in before the downturn that created that loyalty when things got difficult? And what are you investing in that as it compresses and you ride the wave of it, that continues to build that relational cultural strength?

18:37 - 18:38
Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And such a

18:38 - 19:22
Marina Ivanov: good question because it ties back to the up and down of trucking, right? If you just go up really quick on the driver pay, how do you do that when the market goes down? So what we've done actually before the downturn and currently doing as well is that we allow the drivers to share in the success, but they're also sharing the challenges time as well. And I've had great driver retention during the downturn, even though I have to come back on some of the safety bonus, the bonuses that I've had in place. So I had a performance and safety bonus that we implemented before the downturn, where, if the driver met certain qualifications in the mileage and their safety requirements, MPG, that, that every, they had like different levers.

19:22 - 19:47
Marina Ivanov: And it was a very, significance bonus where it was felt like weekly, and it wasn't monthly or quarterly. It was like every week. If you did, if you followed those requirements, you got that extra bonus. And that was a market bonus where they knew that it was because of the way the trucking economy was, because we're going up, you guys were succeeding with this. When it went down, I had to cut those back.

19:48 - 20:06
Marina Ivanov: And I was really nervous that that would create a lot of dissatisfaction with my drivers that they would leave. But it was the opposite. We, we saw a lot of loyalty in our drivers where even with the lost bonus, they're like, Hey, you guys have been good to us. It's the same everywhere else. We're not leaving Apex.

20:06 - 20:19
Marina Ivanov: And now what we're doing is we're doing seasonal bonuses. We'll introduce a bonus for a period of time saying, Hey, this is a hot season right now. We want you to participate in our success. We are doing well. We want you to be doing well with this.

20:19 - 20:39
Marina Ivanov: And so the drivers know that this is seasonal. They have to earn it. And we kind of keep going just like a season at a time. And that allows us to pivot if something changes without losing our drivers, because it's so much harder to cut back. And when it's a bonus, when it's given as an addition, not as part of your pay, there's just a different mindset.

20:39 - 20:56
Marina Ivanov: And it allows the drivers to feel like they have riding the wave with us instead of just kind of going like we took something away from them. So that's what I've done, or my team has done to help create some stability during the ups and downs for our drivers.

20:57 - 21:18
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21:19 - 21:52
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21:52 - 22:14
Ginger Craddock: Clarity, courage, results. When we think about recruiting versus retention in the ups and downs of the the cycles in the market, how much of a recruiting problem is actually a retention or a culture problem?

22:15 - 22:31
Marina Ivanov: Lot of it. Absolutely. I mean, it's we have weekly meetings on Driver Retention and Recruitment. It is such a big part of what we do. And the question was, how much is recruiting a retention problem?

22:31 - 22:55
Marina Ivanov: I think it goes hand in hand, you know, we just kept the drivers. But a lot of times it's not necessarily that the driver is bad or the company's bad. It's just not a good fit. You know, like different drivers look for certain things and they'll sometimes they think they change their mind halfway through and they're like, you know, this is just not for me anymore. And I've worked really hard to create an environment where just drivers don't leave.

22:55 - 23:02
Marina Ivanov: And I took it personally for a while. I'm like, why are leaving? We have such a good thing here. Like this is the best of the best. Why would the drivers leave?

23:02 - 23:20
Marina Ivanov: And I realized a lot of it's just not personal. It has to do with driver preferences. And if you've done as a company, everything you can to be a driver friendly company, you've provided the necessary equipment, the opportunities are there financially. You've given them great treatment. You're respecting them.

23:21 - 23:39
Marina Ivanov: At the end the day, if they're going for something that is just more in their wheelhouse, maybe it's closer to home. It, that's the nature of our industry. It's very cyclical. Drivers are cyclical. They're looking, it's just kind of came, became this, jobs are like the next great thing, you know, and best thing that ever happens for me is when the drivers come back.

23:39 - 23:49
Marina Ivanov: I have so many of my drivers who leave for greener postures and when they come back, I'm so happy that they're back because they come in with a newer perspective and understanding that, like, actually what I have here is really good.

23:50 - 25:03
Ginger Craddock: And it helps feed that culture when they come back. So it's not just you saying or your team leads saying how good the culture is, but you've got drivers talking to drivers about, hey. I thought the grass was greener across the fence, but yet here I came back and here's why. And so when you think about that right fit well, before I pivot to the right fit driver, I wanna I wanna go back and grab something that you said as a leader, you felt it when a driver would leave because you were thinking about all of these pieces. Part of what I have found in maturing in my leadership is when someone moves on, if I've touched all the things that are within my control and my team has, oftentimes I find from deeper conversations that some things may have changed in that person's life so that they're they need to make a different decision than what I have to offer.

25:04 - 25:53
Ginger Craddock: And that frame really helped me mature as a leader because I did feel it so personally when I was only looking at it from my lens of what I had provided. And when I backed up a little bit and began to ask some more curious questions, I realized that oftentimes some things in their lives had changed and so they needed to do something a little different. The other thing that I found is sometimes it will also expose things that I thought we were doing well, but we had an opportunity to improve. It wasn't landing the way that I thought, or maybe I dropped the ball or someone on my team dropped the ball because we're human. We're not machines.

25:53 - 26:22
Ginger Craddock: And so that ended up that ends up being an opportunity to reinforce and to grow and show that we're growing individually. We're growing as a team, and we really are listening in real time, not just to the good wins, but also to the pain points and looking for actionable change. Yeah. Absolutely. So that brings us to when we look and and you do a great job of looking at at both sides.

26:23 - 26:38
Ginger Craddock: So when you look at that right fit driver, who thrives at Apex and who might be a perfectly good professional driver, but simply not the right fit for your operation.

26:39 - 27:06
Marina Ivanov: Well, even I love your feedback and comments when we just discussed, but every management meeting that we have, we have a standing list of terminated or drivers who have left. And I know the reason for every single driver. We do a follow-up, there's an exit questionnaire, like, how do we do, like, please give us some feedback. And at times I'll even call the drivers myself and ask them what happened, especially when it's unclear. I care deeply about why the drivers leave.

27:06 - 27:17
Marina Ivanov: So that is super important for a fleet to actually care. Spend a little bit of time. I know it's, it's a lot. There's a lot on my plate. There's nothing more important than keeping my drivers happy.

27:17 - 27:47
Marina Ivanov: So I'll make it a dedicated time on my calendar where I call drivers to check-in with them. And I'll, oh, that's when the, is the time that I'll call in the drivers I have left that we don't really have a clear reason why, to just get to know them a little bit deeper. And like you said, a lot of times it's just, life changes, you know, they need to stay home to take care of a family member or moved or things like that. But when it goes back to who the right fit for Apex is, and I think about this question a lot with our team, the driver that we're looking for is experienced. So we don't hire brand new drivers.

27:47 - 28:12
Marina Ivanov: We want at least twelve months of experience over the road. We want them to be local because we want them to be able to park their trucks and go home and spend time on their, have a reset. Of course I hire some over the road drivers as well, where they're road runners, they're out for six weeks at a time. Those are a special kind of breed of drivers, but most of them want to be home of the family. So we look for more local drivers.

28:13 - 28:45
Marina Ivanov: And then it also comes to the personality and professionalism. Every driver is an extension of Apex. We want them to be respectful to everyone they encounter because they are the face of Apex. So we interview them and have an in person just a meeting with both the safety manager and the driver recruiter, make sure that they're a good fit in the culture wise. But one thing that we're also a little bit different in is that we're not looking to hire drivers that just want to break the law, run like crazy and be able to get away with it.

28:45 - 29:09
Marina Ivanov: Right now, one of the things that I'm advocating for is just for fair playing field for the trucking industry. We are competing against trucking companies who are using logs that are reset for them every single day. I just literally, we had an orientation for a driver. I asked him where he's coming from. And he's like, Oh yeah, from this company, local company that uses these fake logs to, he's like, wasn't getting enough sleep.

29:09 - 29:20
Marina Ivanov: They were pushing me to run after I'd only got four hours of sleep. And that's, he's been there for years just doing that. He's like, okay, it's just, I can't do that anymore. And that's why he was here at Apex. And I told him that's never going to happen here.

29:20 - 29:45
Marina Ivanov: We're not looking for a driver that wants to run for twenty hours a day. That's that is not the reality. I have an incredible safety record and I'm, and I keep that as some, a huge priority for me. And at the end of the day, I want to sleep at night and the load, no amount of revenue is worth your life or somebody else's life. So that's number one priority is a safe driver.

29:45 - 29:52
Marina Ivanov: You prioritize you as well as the driver. Sorry. Went a little rabbit hole there. So you you

29:53 - 30:57
Ginger Craddock: are talking right down the angle that I want you to talk about and something that we did not talk about previously that I would love your perspective on. Derek Bars has been administrator Derek Bars of FMCSA has been at several events we have been at recently, and we've had opportunity to hear him talk in person and answer questions from executives in trucking. And his language is we wanna get the bad actors out so that it makes room for the professional trucking companies that are doing things right. So that seems to line up with what I'm hearing from you. Share a little bit more from you about your perspective of what Administrator Bars is doing and are you seeing a positive impact from enforcement of laws getting rid of some of those bad actors and helping improve the driver pool?

31:00 - 31:42
Marina Ivanov: Interesting question about the driver pool. Positive impact on the rates where those are improving, and because of the bad actors are leaving. When it comes to the driver pool, I actually think it's a little bit more challenging to find good drivers. We've got a lot of drivers leaving who have no longer qualified, the non domicile CDLs. Charlotte and The Carolinas is a really popular place for people who are coming in from other countries, especially for new programs, folks from Ukraine, and they're running for trucking, other companies that, where they have a non CBL that's currently expiring and they've already expired, they can't renew.

31:42 - 32:13
Marina Ivanov: So now those companies are playing in the same field as we are, because we typically, we don't hire the non domiciled CBL drivers. So all of ours have citizenship. So that now actually makes the driving pool a little bit tighter. So not necessarily improvement where it's getting harder to find drivers, but what that will do is that will create a capacity crunch where, eventually the rates will have to go up to make up for it and driver pay will go up for it. So it's just part of the cycle.

32:13 - 32:27
Marina Ivanov: And there it's a problem that as a fleet, we're always trying to figure out how do we solve this problem? How do we make sure that we have a waiting list? That's my goal. I want to have a waiting list of drivers waiting for us to get a truck to keep getting filled. And what do we do as a company?

32:27 - 32:29
Marina Ivanov: How do we send out? How can we be the best of the best?

32:31 - 33:30
Ginger Craddock: So we have a client that has not replaced their trucks in its lease purchase, and we know historically that drivers prefer exactly what you're saying, the nicer new equipment. And because of their culture and how they take care of drivers, they see to a waiting list consistently in this market. Like but it's the right fit and it's the pipeline all the way through. And so I just wanna affirm and encourage you keep dialing it in these things that we're talking about that Apex has has built your business on. That is your competitive advantage to attracting those right fit professional drivers.

33:30 - 33:52
Ginger Craddock: And so so I just wanna encourage you. That's not a pipe dream. I see it in the data, and I have seen this company deliver on that. And as they get the newer, better equipment, they've got a plan for navigating that as well. And so it's been incredible.

33:53 - 34:45
Ginger Craddock: But people stay because of the bigger picture that you're building. And so the fact that you've got both sides of it with the quality equipment plus your culture, you you're already ahead of what's going on in the market, and that's just incredible. So and that's not flattery like that's sincere. And and that's why I wanted to have this conversation is because I wanna help fleets understand in every market, there's a way to find a competitive advantage and position your fleet and your team at the front of the pack. So as you continue to think about your culture and scaling, I wanna have a question around scaling without losing culture.

34:45 - 34:58
Ginger Craddock: As a fleet grows, where do you see the greatest risk of losing the driver experience that made Apex successful in the first place?

34:58 - 35:34
Marina Ivanov: We had actually experienced that already when we grew from like 30 trucks to 90 trucks. That growth period was very challenging in terms of the connection. I mean, when it was that time period when I was hiring the drivers, probably hired maybe three drivers a month. So it was really easy for me to get to know them, get to know their families, how old their kids are, where they go to school, where they live, like their whole entire family situation. And because we had a terminal that was the office and terminal were together right now, our terminal is a little bit further up the drivers.

35:34 - 36:07
Marina Ivanov: We don't see our drivers as often. That's the biggest challenge for me. But I love getting to know and connect with my drivers on a weekly basis. So I used to be the one processing payroll and I did it old school where I just had a line of drivers when they came back in on Friday or whatever, was Monday, we just processed their trip sheet, look it over with them, had it right there and then an opportunity for them to ask me questions. Sometimes depending on the situation, if they had a really rough week and I had a breakdown, I had to be authority to just be like, Hey, I get it.

36:07 - 36:22
Marina Ivanov: Let me, I know we don't have breakdown pay, but let me take care of you this way. I appreciate your patience. So there was this like really personal touch of like every week I got a chance to see a say my driver say thank you. You did awesome this week. Or like, hey, let's see how we can do better next week.

36:22 - 36:49
Marina Ivanov: I see that there's you didn't get enough miles. I'm going to talk to your dispatcher and see what happened or just that one on one, every single driver, every single week made retention was just like a dream. We barely had any turnout. Drivers really liked them. And then as I got in, as I got somebody else to do payroll and then moving to different departments and lost that kind of personal family touch, it became more professional and much more system oriented.

36:49 - 37:07
Marina Ivanov: Some drivers had an issue with that because they got used to Marina, like just taking good care of them. And now there's somebody else in there. And then next, that's the right thing to do as you scale. So we're finding other ways to coheat that personal touch that can be scaled. And one of the best ways to do that right now is through video content.

37:07 - 37:30
Marina Ivanov: I've gotten new people in that like the young generation right now is amazing with technology and social media. So just sending out videos, something like top five drivers, sending a personal message to them, be like, we rocked it this week. Like you're awesome. Like goes a really, really long way. Those are the little things that I have found that make such a difference when you're scaling and you're growing.

37:31 - 37:39
Ginger Craddock: I love that. There's tools in our toolbox to scale the relationship in an authentic way too. I I love how you've done that.

37:39 - 37:40
Marina Ivanov: And

37:40 - 38:01
Ginger Craddock: so you've become an advocate for creating opportunities for people who may otherwise be overlooked. So when we're thinking about second chance drivers and workforce development, What should a fleet evaluate when considering a second chance candidate?

38:01 - 38:28
Marina Ivanov: Thank you, Ginger, for giving me an opportunity to talk about this. I'm actually very passionate about this subject. I have seen firsthand what giving someone a second chance can do to them, to their family, and the ripple effects it makes in the community. We have a stigma around second chance hires across all industries that needs to be just looked at. There are people who have gone down that path that we don't have any understanding or reason why.

38:28 - 39:06
Marina Ivanov: Yes, there's, I'm not naive to the, like the serious offenses, but there's also things that you have to have an open mind on and understand that there's more than one like, don't know if I can explain it correctly, but it's just like, don't judge everything by what you see on paper. Be open to what else is there, like investigate. So I hire SAP drivers through a very rigorous process and they have to make sure that they actually meet our requirements and know where they stand. And I lose points in my insurance audit for that every single year. And I talk to them about it.

39:06 - 39:27
Marina Ivanov: I'm like, will not let an opportunity go by where I can bring in a driver who's really high quality. Maybe someone that we even know or referral or like an example of that would be when I had a driver, someone I knew who actually had eaten too many poppy seeds, bag bagels. And this is God honest to me. This is my dad's friend. He'd like goes to church with him.

39:27 - 39:42
Marina Ivanov: He's never done drugs in his life, failed the drug test, and now he cannot provide for his family. So no one else will take him in. And now we have just like, imagine the impact that that makes in that person's family. So I've given them the opportunity. I took the additional costs.

39:42 - 40:11
Marina Ivanov: I took the loss points and insurance, but I knew when I trusted this driver that he would be, he would be able to get through it. And I've done that for others. It's not a blanket, like everyone is welcome, but at least have it in your policy where it's evaluated. Where as a fleet, you can look at this driver, look at their history, column the references, do a little bit more digging, because those drivers are typically the most loyal and the most appreciative drivers. And the impact that you make in their lives and the community is is tremendous.

40:11 - 40:17
Marina Ivanov: I highly encourage everyone to look into that, and that's something I will stand on as as long as I'm in this industry.

40:18 - 40:56
Ginger Craddock: I literally, as you painted that picture, got cold chills. Oh. Because in career development, no matter what your career it career is, in human development, oh my goodness. If my career had been shut down because of some immature decision that I made in people skills or whatever, and then I wasn't given another chance. Like it it doesn't matter what the frame is, but looking at the individual and giving opportunity for better choices, maturity.

40:58 - 41:17
Ginger Craddock: I love how you frame that, and it it goes back to the very first thing that you talked about is looking at the individual driver. That's incredible. Thank you for talking around in a thoughtful way about that sensitive subject and and unpacking it in a very respectable way.

41:18 - 41:34
Marina Ivanov: Yeah. Thank you. And it's been actually a little bit challenging for me. I'm like, Ugh, I'm going to bring this up to the open. But I'm like, if we don't just make it normal and start talking about this, everyone will consider it a taboo and just kind of hide behind, Oh, we don't hire the felons or SAP drivers.

41:34 - 42:00
Marina Ivanov: And it just becomes this thing where the doors just keep closing their faces. Then it's like, no, it's possible to actually to hire successful drivers down those pathways. And it is thank you for honoring that, because it was a bit challenging for me to be like, all right, do I want to go out and make this an open thing that we do because it could be stigmatized? But at the end of the day, I'm owning it, I'm proud of it. We do a really good job of vetting the drivers.

42:00 - 42:08
Marina Ivanov: We have a second chance hiring committee that we do. So there's a lot of things that you can do to prevent, let's say, the risk that comes with that.

42:09 - 43:07
Ginger Craddock: I have a brief, real, personal story from that in that my husband's I I I heard you say about that driver example was, like, part of the church program, like a personal relationship. My husband's parents were part of a Sunday school group that actually had a prison ministry. And so they developed this relationship with a man who went to prison very young from a foolish decision, and they literally nurtured that relationship over decades, over decades. And when that man got out of prison, they helped him get reintegrated into society. He is a full time associate pastor in their church.

43:07 - 43:56
Ginger Craddock: Like, his story of second chance and redemption is incredible. And he became a really close personal friend to our family. And even though Carl's mom and dad are no longer here, to see the fruit of that man's life from the second chance and the number of people that he's impacted, like there are no words. And so thank you for the work that you're doing around that because it can be uncomfortable and difficult, but it literally can change the course of history. So I want you to hear from me, thank you for taking the road less traveled and and doing meaningful work.

43:57 - 44:14
Ginger Craddock: So thank you very much. So as we look at technology and AI, where can technology genuinely improve the driver experience, and where should fleets be careful not to replace that human relationship?

44:15 - 44:45
Marina Ivanov: Absolutely. Right now, there's a lot of talk about automation and AI and I'll just book the loads for you and AI just hasn't really fully developed in that human connection and the touch. It's so important for us to still continue to speak out and reach out to our drivers. So yes, the AI, there could be some planning help with that, but a human to reach out and be like, hey, just send this information. Let me know if you have any questions, I'm here for you.

44:46 - 45:07
Marina Ivanov: Or a great example of this would be when it's a new location. And the human touch is having the pictures sent to the driver directly, creating a little SOP, a plan, walking them through and telling them, hey, this is going be a little tight spot for you. Here's where you're going to go. I'll call or watching the driver. I'll call you when you start pulling in.

45:07 - 45:22
Marina Ivanov: I'm going to guide you to tell you exactly where you need to go or watching them when they get traffic and calling them, Hey, I'm letting you know this road is closed. I got a thing. Go around this way. Like they care. I think the human, someone just wants, like most of our drivers want to know that we care about them.

45:22 - 45:48
Marina Ivanov: And so AI could be great in efficiency and automation and planning, but it can't really show the driver that we care for them as a company. So the little things that we do from the fleet manager perspective when we call them and give them a heads up or help them out in the situation, that's where the human touch still needs to be. And that also comes to safety. There's a lot of advancement in front facing cameras, which we've had actually since 2019. They have AI coaching.

45:48 - 46:11
Marina Ivanov: Of course, the camera will talk back to the driver and tell him, you know, get off your phone or put on your seatbelt. But there's something about the safety manager calling them personally and saying, hey, I've noticed that there is this behavior and here's how it's impacted, how this could hurt you and it hurts the company. It limits your ability. You get a citation for this, that's actually 10 points. You could actually lose your license because of this.

46:11 - 46:30
Marina Ivanov: I care about you and your family. I know that you want to, this is your livelihood. Let's make sure that we keep the phones away so that you can be protected and the Apex to be protected. That goes a long way, versus the AI telling them to get off the phone. You could easily disregard that, but a human caring about me is harder to ignore than the end of the machine.

46:31 - 46:46
Ginger Craddock: And understanding maybe why a driver made a decision that they wouldn't normally make. Know, asking them, hey, what was going on in this moment? Yes. That's incredible. That's incredible.

46:46 - 47:02
Ginger Craddock: So as we wrap up, looking ahead, if qualified driver capacity continues to tighten, what should fleet leaders be doing now rather than waiting until they urgently need drivers?

47:02 - 47:33
Marina Ivanov: Great question. All the things we talked about. Building a really good pipeline of drivers as well. Looking at technology and AI has changed how we do things so fast, and it's rapidly changing every week. So not waiting to develop your strategy, like I'm thinking that it's going be the same thing three months down the road, changing it weekly, looking into new platforms like we used to only advertise on Indeed.

47:34 - 47:57
Marina Ivanov: Now, or before that, it was Craigslist. And so like, it kind of shifts consistently. Now it's Facebook. And you're looking at what works, what doesn't work on a weekly basis, pivoting quickly, and spending more of those marketing dollars for drivers, the places that actually matter. I think that's most important that I need to do is just building that really good pipeline, building your story about why the driver will want to drive for you.

47:57 - 48:09
Marina Ivanov: It's sometimes hard to feel like you can differentiate yourself when everybody's sharing the same thing. We do this, we do that. Find your special something and just hone in on that, like, in the right driver will find you.

48:10 - 48:29
Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And so I wanna pivot, and I want you to share with us about one driver's whose experience at Apex changed the way you think about recruiting, retention, and leadership.

48:30 - 48:40
Marina Ivanov: Oh, it's such a great question. I I was I talk about Marcus. Like, he's actually, actually had a birthday recently. So happy birthday, Marcus, if you're listening. I love that man dearly.

48:40 - 49:06
Marina Ivanov: He has been an instrumental part of Apex, has been with us for almost ten years. And there's something about, oh, actually it's been ten years since, sorry, July. It's something about watching someone who's there with you through every step, like the difficult times, the good times and loyal and has your back no matter what is very grounding. There it's everyone needs to have a person like that. Call him my personal bodyguard.

49:06 - 49:21
Marina Ivanov: But when I was looking at his applications in 2016, I almost didn't hire him. I said, come on, just there's stuff in this background. I'm not comfortable with this. And my husband was the one who was like, let's, let's, let's talk to him. So when we talked to him, he is just the nicest person you'll ever meet.

49:21 - 49:38
Marina Ivanov: That's why I was like, don't ever judge it by an application. Always gives him an opportunity to talk. Yes. They can also talk to you the other way, but you trust the instinct that you'll get to see who the person is. After bringing him on, he was a fantastic driver for three years and then naturally started helping new drivers.

49:38 - 50:16
Marina Ivanov: I didn't have a driver trainer program at that time, but he would just take on the new drivers and help them out when he saw them. And eventually I realized that this is, this man is a true leader. We brought him into a driver recruiting role and he excelled at everything that we put in front of him. We had to see excel at the system at hiring the drivers, managing the drivers, and has stepped into a director role now and is doing a great job of communicating with our drivers and our fleet managers and advocating for them. And I would have never given him an opportunity if I had to judge them on that first application.

50:16 - 50:48
Marina Ivanov: So I'm always open to what else can this person offer that's beyond their resume. Same thing with the, I recently hired a safety manager who wasn't like, I'm not sure about the resume. There's not enough experience. But I, she was persistent and I got, I got her in the room and was just so impressed with the drive, the enthusiasm, the, the vitality that this person possessed. And I'm like, well, she would be great for Apex and giving them an opportunity to be like, this could be the next great leader.

50:48 - 51:01
Marina Ivanov: So I love giving people opportunities that don't necessarily have the credits or the education, but they have the desire, they have the caring, the heart to do so and seeing what they can accomplish given the opportunity is so satisfying.

51:02 - 51:42
Ginger Craddock: Yeah. And Marcus' story closely mirrors what we're hearing at Hire Truckers is especially from the younger and kinda mid range age drivers. They are wanting career paths and opportunities within trucking beyond the cab of the truck. And and so the way that you guys created those opportunities for Marcus says a lot about how you've grown him in the industry and retained top talent. So thank you for sharing Marcus' story with us.

51:42 - 51:56
Ginger Craddock: Again, where we can create those opportunities becomes a competitive advantage. So let's do rapid fire as we wrap up. So best thing a fleet can do to retain a great driver?

51:57 - 51:58
Marina Ivanov: Care about them.

51:59 - 52:08
Ginger Craddock: Biggest recruiting mistake fleets make? Lying. Yes. Simple. Mistake humans make, lying.

52:08 - 52:21
Ginger Craddock: Yes. Yes. Pay or culture? Culture. One thing drivers deserve more from leadership.

52:21 - 52:29
Ginger Craddock: Respect. One characteristic that you won't compromise on in a driver.

52:29 - 52:30
Marina Ivanov: Safety.

52:32 - 52:36
Ginger Craddock: What gives you optimism about trucking right now?

52:36 - 52:41
Marina Ivanov: Oh, such a good one. Regulatory changes right now in the FMCSA.

52:42 - 52:42
Ginger Craddock: Yes.

52:42 - 52:46
Marina Ivanov: Great. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for giving us a way to the tunnel.

52:46 - 53:04
Ginger Craddock: And and, yes, so the closing question. If a fleet executive is listening today and wants to become the kind of company great drivers choose and stay with, what's the first thing that you would tell them to change?

53:05 - 53:30
Marina Ivanov: I would tell them to look at how they recruit a driver. Put themselves in the shoes of that driver and then look at the ads. I would tell them to just pretend you're a driver and go through your process and see, or hire a secret shopper. Go look actually at your processes and see what's missing. And if it matches your values, who you are as a company all the way across, even from the very first day.

53:30 - 53:42
Marina Ivanov: That's that's what I do with my drivers. I will pick one that I really connect with. And I'm like, you're gonna be my secret shopper. You're gonna report back to me. No one knows that you're doing this, you're report back to me.

53:42 - 54:11
Marina Ivanov: Every now they do. On how my guys did or my my ladies, how my team did. Did you feel respected across the like, tell me about how they were treated at shippers and we'll meet after the first two weeks and kinda go through it and and give them a bonus for participating in that program. Oh my gosh, they it's just like another thing where you feel like they feel special selected, you know, great that you chose them. They really appreciate the opportunity given to provide more than just driving services, provide actual feedback.

54:12 - 54:39
Marina Ivanov: And that's what I would do. I learned a lot about my recruitment process and it wasn't working and where we had gaps because when the rapid fire question about lying, that is the one thing that we do not do at Outro the town, the whole God honest truth and tell them and have them say no before they come through the whole process than to lie to bring them in the door. I have seen that over and over and over again. And drivers have gotten so weary of recruiters. They don't trust them anymore.

54:39 - 54:55
Marina Ivanov: They don't sometimes like what we offer is really good and I'll get feedback from drivers who applied, but didn't go through. They're like, I just don't. It sounds a little too good to be true in my opinion. Like I've had this game, told me this before. And so I was like, no, it's actually really truly is this good at Apex.

54:55 - 55:09
Marina Ivanov: But, that's if we've continued to stick by our word and do what we say we're going to do. We do not lie in our recruiting. We are honest with our pay. We're honest with our home time, with our equipment, then it goes a long way.

55:10 - 55:30
Ginger Craddock: Marina, thank you for a thoughtful conversation today, and thank you from me personally for one of my favorite conversations I've had to date around hiring truck drivers. So where can our listeners connect with you and learn more about Apex Transit Solutions?

55:30 - 55:49
Marina Ivanov: Absolutely. Thank you. I that means a lot. I had such a good time with you too, Hire, and just understanding with your perspective, I've learned a little bit from you as well. But if anyone wants to follow me, I am on LinkedIn in the Marina Ivanov and Apex Transit Solutions, and our website is apextransitllc.com.

55:50 - 55:52
Marina Ivanov: So that would be the best places to find me.

55:53 - 56:14
Ginger Craddock: Thank you, Marina. We will also add that in the show notes. So if you enjoyed today's episode of the Hire Truckers Podcast, I encourage you go back and listen to past episodes that you haven't listened to. The content is excellent from real industry leaders. And also subscribe and follow along for future episodes.

56:14 - 56:38
Ginger Craddock: And until then, keep on trucking, and thank you for the work that you're doing to elevate this industry and to amplify the voices of the professional truck drivers and to continue to improve our industry. Because as you know, everything comes on a truck at some point.