Why Hiring the Wrong Driver Costs More Than an Empty Truck

00:00 - 00:13Tim Kordula: I'm not a firm believer there's a driver shortage. I'm a firm believer there's a shortage of quality drivers. So you get a good driver that this isn't the fit for him and and... Or her. And, yes, it it definitely can lead to incidents.

00:13 - 00:17Tim Kordula: There's no question about it. I'm I'm I'm fully... I fully believe that. Actually, I've seen it.

00:33 - 00:51Ginger Craddock: Tim, carriers know what an empty truck cost them, but we don't talk nearly as much about what the wrong driver can cost. When a carrier decides who to put behind the wheel, how much of that hiring decision is a risk decision?

00:52 - 01:09Tim Kordula: So that's a great question. Recruiters need to look at the entire picture behind an application. It's not just the MVR or the PSP anymore, but let's look at patterns. Is it a job hopper? Is it multiple short tenure jobs?

01:10 - 01:38Tim Kordula: Are there gaps in employment? Is there a string of minor violations that might individually just be dismissible, but could collectively tell a story? Behavior is huge with hiring a driver. Recruiters are trained to fill seats. A good driver manager, a good safety director is trained to see what happens twelve to eighteen months from now, when that driver is in a claim or an incident or an accident.

01:40 - 02:04Ginger Craddock: And so along that line of seeing down the road, you've spent decades looking at trucking through the lens of safety, training, and risk. So based on your experience, what do you see in driver hiring decisions that a recruiter or a fleet executive might not immediately see?

02:05 - 02:49Tim Kordula: Well, again, I think it goes back to what I originally said, it's the patterns. You know, if you look at somebody that comes in, that's got, you know, they might have multiple minor violations. I'm big behavior guy, you know, so I like to do a lot of coaching, lot of mentoring, a lot of teaching. So if somebody comes in with several minor violations that might not be a disqualifying offense, I have to wonder what's causing that. So over the years, what I've developed is just, you know, taking them alongside and talking to them, enhance the interview a little bit more, get the recruiters to enhance the interview a little bit more, and maybe pull out some of those behavior factors that might contribute down the road to more risky behavior once we bring them on.

02:50 - 03:28Ginger Craddock: And so I like that forward approach where you're looking at where there might be coaching opportunities and be curious about why are those patterns developing. And so when we look at that in conjunction with the pressure, you kind of touched on this in our opening, the pressure of the recruiter to fill an empty truck or an executive feels the pressure to fill an empty truck to meet their freight obligations. At what point does the urgency to seat the equipment begin to create a greater risk for the carrier?

03:29 - 04:05Tim Kordula: That's actually an easy one to answer. The moment a fleet starts granting exceptions to its own hiring standards or waiving that violation threshold, maybe skipping a road test, rushing the background checks, maybe putting them behind the wheel before the background checks are completely in, or maybe, we probably should have done a road test. The risk transfer has already begun. It started right there. Empty trucks, they definitely cost money, but trucks driven by the wrong driver are gonna cost you far, far more.

04:05 - 04:08Tim Kordula: The breakeven point is usually that first preventable accident.

04:10 - 04:38Ginger Craddock: And so when we think about communicating that across departments, safety has a responsibility, recruiting has a responsibility, the executives have a responsibility to move freight and manage the P and L. What are some tools that you've learned along your career that helps bridge those conversations and nurture conversations and clarity of communication versus creating silos?

04:39 - 05:10Tim Kordula: So the last carrier that I worked for, it was a unique environment for me because it was an open office environment. So safety, recruiting, operations, sales were separate, they were in a different room, part of the operations were all the same. So when I would listen to what conversations were happening in operations, sometimes the red flag would go up. It's like, wait a minute here, that, you know, it's always seems to be safety. You know, I'm gonna have you talk to safety or I'm gonna have to talk to safety.

05:10 - 05:29Tim Kordula: So what we implemented was more of a cross training value. In other words, we take operations, put them in safety, we take our new safety people and we put them in operations. So we can see because number one, operations, they're under a lot of pressure. We gotta get the job done. We've gotta get the freight moved.

05:29 - 06:00Tim Kordula: Not to say that there's a disregard for safety, but I think it's sometimes it's kind of put on the back burner. It's like, well, safety will take care of it once we have that issue. So if we can cross train, I did a talk with TCA not that long ago at the safety and security meeting about how frontline management impacts a safety culture within a company. And if it doesn't start at the very, very top and then trickles its way all the way down to the driver, that culture is just not going to be there. So that's what we're trying to do is we're trying to build that culture right away.

06:01 - 06:49Ginger Craddock: And so one thing we know about a right fit driver that is safety minded, that's got good habits, that fits the culture of the carrier, fits... It is aligned on how that job drives the home time. What we know is when we get the right fit on the carrier side in conjunction with the driver fit, that it improves retention. And so what I'm hearing in these conversations is you're building bridges or lines of communication that allow internal alignment that then overflows into alignment with the right fit driver. So getting ultimately that impacts the bottom line in a very positive way.

06:49 - 06:59Ginger Craddock: And so what I hear you doing and from the talks that heard you give, you're creating that alignment. We are allies cross departmentally.

07:00 - 07:14Tim Kordula: Definitely. You know, if you take... Say for instance, you've got that driver that's in that right position, and that's what we always... There there should never be that, you know, let's let's sugarcoat the recruiting part. Well, we're gonna bring you in and you're gonna be able to do whatever you want.

07:14 - 07:25Tim Kordula: When I hear words like that, it's just... It... The hair stands up on my neck. You know? There's different positions most carriers have, you know, regional, dedicated, you know, long haul, maybe short haul.

07:25 - 07:38Tim Kordula: You know? When we hire... And this is the practice we always wanna get into, when we hire, we ask the driver, what do you wanna do? What is your goal? And I can go back to one of the carriers that I used to work for as a driver.

07:39 - 07:59Tim Kordula: Every Friday or Thursday or whatever day I would finish for the week, it wasn't, you're going to be doing this. The question was always given to me, what is your plan for next week? Well, went miles with me, no pun intended. But it's like, my plan? It's your company, but you want me to tell you what I wanna do?

07:59 - 08:13Tim Kordula: Okay. This is what I wanna do. And most of the time it could be accommodated. But if you take that driver who's who's got that dedicated run, who's got the same pattern, the same thing, he's home... He or she is home the same amount of time every week.

08:13 - 08:57Tim Kordula: And then you switch that abruptly, you know, without forewarning or just knowing that it's gonna probably irritate them, it's gonna create fatigue, it's gonna create distraction, it could create resentment, and ultimately it's gonna create an incident. When I do a distracted driving talk, one of the big parts of distracted driving I talk about is the cognitive distraction. So now you've got a driver that's out there, that's been doing the same thing over and over and over, you put them in a different he or she in a different environment, they're not happy, cognitively, they're not thinking of what they should be doing and it's going to lead to incidents, there's no question about it. And again, it goes back to what I originally said about the behavior part.

08:58 - 09:35Ginger Craddock: And so building on that behavior part and the other insights you shared, I wanna unpack a qualified driver versus a carrier ready driver that's specific to a carrier. So a driver may meet the basic qualifications and still not be the right driver for a particular carrier. So from your lens, what's the difference between a qualified, insurable, and truly fleet ready driver?

09:36 - 09:45Tim Kordula: So qualified. We all meet the FMCSA minimums. We all... That's what we meet. We're licensed, we're physically fit.

09:45 - 09:56Tim Kordula: We've got the proper endorsements. We meet the minimums, we're qualified to drive. No accidents, no nothing. And I'm good to go. Insurable, some underwriters have different qualifications.

09:56 - 10:13Tim Kordula: Maybe they want three to five to ten years, depending on what it is, accident free, violation free. Okay, that's fine. You're qualified and you're insurable. You're probably going to get a job somewhere, but fleet ready. Are you gonna meet the demands of the lane that the fleet wants to put you in?

10:14 - 10:31Tim Kordula: What about the equipment? Are you familiar with that type of equipment? You know, with collision mitigation now, we got a lot of drivers that are, oh, I don't know about this, you know, lane departure stuff. And you know, I always teach a driver, drive the truck, don't let the truck drive you. The culture within the organization, do they fit in that culture?

10:31 - 11:12Tim Kordula: Because there are some drivers, some folks out there that just would not fit in a certain culture, depending on how the carrier operates. The home time model, safety expectations. So unfortunately, a lot of hiring practices stop at the qualified and insurable spot, but we don't look at, are you fleet ready for our particular fleet? Working for several different carriers, you know, being in the position I'm in right now, it's not a one stop shop. Every carrier is a little bit different and I'm finding that out even more and more, you know, being a risk consultant and talking to carriers from five trucks to 500 trucks.

11:13 - 11:22Tim Kordula: The operations aren't the same. It's not a one stop shop. The best fleets are gonna screen all the way right down to the fleet ready part.

11:22 - 11:33Ginger Craddock: So Tim, along those lines, can a good professional driver actually become a high risk hire simply because they're in the wrong environment?

11:34 - 12:01Tim Kordula: Oh, absolutely. And again, it goes back to what I said about, you know, distractions, fatigue, and incidents, you know, and I I kind of correlate that with can a really good driver. Can your best driver be one of your best trainers or instructors? And the answer is absolutely not. You know, if you're putting somebody in an environment that they're just not comfortable with, they don't have the cohesiveness with, you know, the operations team.

12:02 - 12:22Tim Kordula: It just adds to that stress, it adds to that pressure. With the market the way it is, you know, I'm not a firm believer there's a driver shortage. I'm a firm believer there's a shortage of quality drivers. So you get a good driver that this isn't the fit for him or her, and yes, it definitely can lead to incidents. There's no question about it.

12:22 - 12:43Tim Kordula: I fully believe that. Actually, I've seen it. And what a good carrier will hopefully do if possible, and here again, it depends on their operation, can they move that driver into a position that's a little bit more feasible for them and more of what they want so they can retain them? You know, it's all about retention now. It's all about retention.

12:44 - 13:20Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And so I wanna unpack a little bit what you touched on about you can have a top performing excellent high quality driver, but that does not necessarily make a great driver trainer. Correct. So what are the characteristics that you would encourage executives to look for in a candidate that they are considering as a driver trainer? Because in our industry, we need more good quality driver trainers.

13:20 - 13:21Ginger Craddock: What should they look for, Tammy?

13:21 - 13:45Tim Kordula: Oh, that's that's a great question. And I love that question because I've I've had to do that. I've had to bring in instructors and trainers, and I will be the first to admit I've made mistakes because I thought, okay, they are a good driver. Just like I mentioned, you're gonna take... You could take your best driver and he or she may not be able to convey that information the way it needs to be conveyed.

13:45 - 14:33Tim Kordula: You know, simply sitting in the in the right seat going, oh, you're not doing it right. And that's it without giving them the why and the root cause behind an incident, being able to coach, look at their behavior. You know, the one thing that I made it a practice in in the CDL schools that I I taught at was we'd always have at least once we got on the road, we'd always have at least a half hour to forty five minutes is what I like to just to call my warmup session. So we get all the students in, we talk to them about the previous day, how things go, and you can get a sense right then and there on how they're feeling for the day. If you can't get that sense, if you can't figure out the behavior part of that driver, you're probably not going to make a very good trainer or instructor or even a driver mentor.

14:33 - 14:55Tim Kordula: Again, you could have all the skills in the world be, you know, world champion, state champion, national champion truck driver. But if you can't understand the people you're teaching and know what they're... Are they coachable? You know, What is your process for coaching these drivers? Can you get the point across?

14:55 - 15:13Tim Kordula: Do they understand? Bob and Sue, two different students, two different learning methods, you need to be able to differentiate between the two as far as your teaching goes. They both have the capability of learning, but they're learning in different ways. Learning is a skill. There's no question about it.

15:13 - 15:33Tim Kordula: Learning is a skill. I had a really good conversation with, I'm sure a lot of people know Doctor. Anderson, Gina Anderson from Luma. She's a great person, I love talking to her. She studies the brain and it's like, wow, I don't know that I'd make a great candidate, but if you wanna study mine, let me know.

15:34 - 15:55Tim Kordula: But that's what I try to do when I bring on instructors, trainers, mentors is I look at them, I have conversations like you and I are having right now. And how are they reacting to the conversation? You know, if they're just sitting there like a bump on a log, it's like, no, this probably isn't gonna work. So that's in a nutshell, that's what we'd look for is how are they gonna interact? How are they coachable?

15:56 - 16:04Tim Kordula: Is the trainer coachable? Are they... Do they have that coachability that they can give to these other drivers and go from there?

16:05 - 16:55Ginger Craddock: And back to the right fit driver, I hear you on is the driver coachable, and is the is the trainer coachable? I believe so strongly in the importance of being coachable and what that looks like that when I'm hiring, that actually is some of the initial interview process. And so I think that fits with drivers too. There are some things that recruiters and your whole team can kind of explore how open are they to being coachable because being coachable is a learned skill over our lifetime, I think, at least it has been for me and requires humility and curiosity. And so, those are characteristics I'm looking for.

16:55 - 17:30Ginger Craddock: And I look for ways to put a potential new hire into a situation where I can measure, are they coachable? How do they handle how do they handle moments like this? And that's been super valuable. And it increases the enjoyment of working with coachable people, both from your executives all the way through your organization. I think I want to live my whole life being curious and coachable because that's how we're gonna grow from the people around us.

17:30 - 18:02Tim Kordula: Well, and I think it starts with the interview process. You know, when we go back to the qualified versus insurable versus fleet ready, you know, it goes through the interview process. Not everybody we interview is gonna be a trainer or a mentor, but again, are they coachable? If there is an incident, and here again, you could take somebody that's coachable, but if they're not being coached in a productive manner, somebody may decide, well, they're just not coachable. Well, I always look at it, talk to me how you're actually talking to this person.

18:02 - 18:30Tim Kordula: You know, if you're saying, well, you did this wrong and we can't have that happen again. We've got telematics galore now, And when you start looking at dashcams and you look at behavior patterns within telematics, you can show that there's no secrets there. Show that to the driver and get them involved and how can we fix this? Let's work together and see how we can fix this. When they hear those words work together, that just goes miles and miles and miles.

18:31 - 18:44Ginger Craddock: And that's basic human behavior. We wanna be... Every human being wants to be respected and valued. And the way that you frame that shows that collaborative spirit with finding a solution.

18:44 - 18:46Tim Kordula: Absolutely. No question about it.

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19:05 - 19:40Ginger Craddock: Even in a tough market, our clients see improved performance month over month by optimizing smarter and making every hiring dollar work harder. For honest insight, sharper targeting and results you can trust. Visit truckingclicks.com or call (512) 982-0816. Hire Truckers by Clarity, Courage, Results. Let's lean in and look a little bit deeper at the hidden cost of a wrong hire.

19:41 - 19:56Ginger Craddock: So beyond turnover, where do poor driver hiring decisions ultimately show up? In safety events, claims, equipment compliance, insurance, and overall fleet performance? Let's look all the way through. No

19:56 - 20:10Tim Kordula: question about it. Preventable accident frequency. You know, that's something again with telematics, you know, we look at that. CSA scores, cargo claims, equipment wear and abuse. I always worked very, very closely with maintenance.

20:11 - 20:55Tim Kordula: And when maintenance would come to me and say, we're putting a set of brakes on this truck again, along with a set of tires, I need to look at the driver, obviously, because it's not a glitch in brakes or the tires. Know, hours of service violations, you know, that is all gonna reflect possibly in insurance premiums. You know, the wrong hire doesn't just leave if we get rid of them, okay? They leave a trail, okay? And with nuclear verdicts and reptile theories and these ruthless plaintiff attorneys that are out there, you know, I'm the type of person again, now we're kind of going backwards and not backwards, but we're going back to that coaching part again, is I wanna correct that behavior.

20:56 - 21:23Tim Kordula: Because if I just give up and say, you know what, you're abusing our equipment, I need to let you go. What's that gonna do? It's gonna just transfer that to another carrier. And now if that driver gets into an accident or they start abusing somebody else's equipment, I feel a little bit responsible for that because I didn't do what I was supposed to do. So, you know, there can be a lot of hidden costs in hiring the wrong hire, you know, bringing on the wrong hire, but okay, let's...

21:23 - 21:32Tim Kordula: We made that mistake. We brought somebody in we shouldn't have brought in. Now let's look, can we actually coach them? Can we make them a better driver? Is that possible?

21:32 - 21:43Tim Kordula: I would I would try to look at the bright side of things. And if I can bring a so so driver in and make them a good or even a great driver, man, I'll tell you that's the reward for that is just is unbelievable.

21:44 - 22:40Ginger Craddock: And I heard you in that we wanna coach and guide and bring them up in the industry, not just for our company, but if they move on down the road. Like, I do believe these individual conversations not only improve what's going on inside individual carriers, but I do believe the conversations and the actions that we are taking can continue to improve aspects of our industry. And you you touched on doctor Gina Anderson and just the work that you... You're doing as well, Tim. Like, the number of people and just even at TCA's call on Washington, the number of people in our industry that are committed to having thoughtful conversations around the table and improving the driver experience, improving the perception of our industry.

22:40 - 22:53Ginger Craddock: Like, I could not be more proud to be in part of an industry and a group of people that really are committed to making things better. And it's conversations like this, it's actions like this.

22:53 - 23:21Tim Kordula: You know, and you hit it right on the head. You know, when I... My ultimate goal, I drove for fifteen and a half years. I mean, I've been in this industry going on thirty two years next month, and I've been on every single corner of this industry. And I made the commitment once I came off the road and got into mentoring and training and safety and risk management that, yes, I'm committed to my carrier, but what I do, I'm committed to the industry.

23:21 - 23:40Tim Kordula: So I would follow, you know, podcasts and I would follow periodicals and I would learn from that. And that's what I wanna give back. And that's what I do give back to drivers and carriers and and and what have you. But you know, it's being committed to the industry. You know, it's a great, such a rewarding industry.

23:40 - 23:57Tim Kordula: It really is. I mean, obviously it's gone through its ups and downs, but you hit it right on the head. It's the industry. And that's why I do the things that I do. And that's what when I see somebody that's wants to develop, I wanna develop them that in that same way.

23:57 - 24:22Tim Kordula: You know, I wanna train somebody good enough so they could leave if they wanted to, but treat them well enough so they don't. You know, to keep them here, keep them within our group, and then just watch them blossom from there. Sooner or later, I'm gonna have to get replaced. You know, that's the way that's the way I was with with all my carriers. Now, here where the position I'm in now, I'm here till I retire hopefully.

24:22 - 24:28Tim Kordula: And then, but yeah, it's the industry. It is the industry that just keeps me smiling.

24:29 - 24:45Ginger Craddock: I 100% agree. And so thinking about recruiting and safety and operations, Tim, where do you see the biggest disconnect between these teams when evaluating drivers?

24:46 - 24:58Tim Kordula: So as a recruit... And and believe me, I know I know a lot of good recruiting companies and I know a lot of recruiters. So anybody that's listening to this, this isn't a dig against you. Okay? But recruiting wants bodies.

24:58 - 25:19Tim Kordula: They wanna get as many people in as they can. Hey, I've been down the recruiting road, I know what you're looking for. Operations wants availability. Safety wants compliance and low risk. So when they don't share that definition of success, each optimizes their own metric, and we have a driver that just completely falls through the gap.

25:19 - 25:38Tim Kordula: So share those scorecards. You know, again, it gets back to that cross training. Cross train your operations with your safety, bring in the recruiters. One of the last carriers I worked for, great relationship with the recruiters. I would talk to them about safety and say, listen, you might wanna start asking some of these questions.

25:38 - 26:01Tim Kordula: And they did, and their success stories became a little bit better on the quality of candidate they were bringing in. And they can attribute to that to conversations with safety and operations. Getting that whole thing just meshed into one nice, soft, you know, cushy pillow ball type thing where we're all working together is where you're gonna start bringing in your really good drivers.

26:02 - 26:11Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And what would change if all three shared the same definition of a successful hire?

26:11 - 26:19Tim Kordula: Oh my gosh. The numbers would probably... Your recruiting numbers would probably drop. Okay? Your bodies like...

26:19 - 26:31Tim Kordula: Again, recruiting wants bodies. Okay? Operations wants availability. I'm thinking that putting all those together, it's gonna drop. But again, like I said earlier, I don't feel we have a driver shortage.

26:32 - 26:47Tim Kordula: I feel we have a shortage of quality drivers. That's where I think we're at. We as carriers, we as CDL schools, we as mentoring carriers, training carriers, have the opportunity to change that. Is it gonna change overnight? Absolutely not.

26:47 - 27:10Tim Kordula: It's gonna take some time. But I think if we get more and more and more involved in the mentoring and the training and getting operations and safety and recruiting and upper management all on exactly the same page, and when I say the same page, I mean the same page, same paragraph, the same sentence, that's when you're gonna get your quality drivers, and eventually those numbers are gonna start climbing again.

27:11 - 28:07Ginger Craddock: And retention improves because what was communicated to the driver on the front end matches their experience. And something that I'm hearing from drivers is they want to be perceived as professionals. Yes. And so anytime I refer to a driver, I am using professional driver because what they have to do customer service wise for the clients, for the safety, like, all the things our professional drivers in this industry are incredible and they want to be viewed as that. And so if a carrier is not mindful of these things, they know that that's going to reflect badly on them.

28:07 - 28:38Ginger Craddock: And so I like this idea that I'm hearing from drivers and that I'm hearing from elite carriers is just reframing, creating this alignment and participating in elevating all of these pieces and what it takes. It's a unified message, it lets the drivers truly choose what works best for them and then it match matches. They getting away from some of that bait and switch that our drivers have felt.

28:38 - 29:10Tim Kordula: Exactly. You know, and what you mentioned earlier, just it speaks volumes with me and that's treating these folks as professionals. You know, in past carriers, I dealt a lot with WIOLA. In other words, drivers coming in, getting WIOLA grants for CDL funding. And one of the things unfortunately that I had to fight with is talking to some of these state agencies in particular where I'm at and explaining to them that this is an in demand occupation.

29:10 - 29:32Tim Kordula: Okay, I can remember my very first call in Washington quite a few years ago And sitting in a Senator's office with the Senator in place saying, well, you just wanna talk about a bunch of truck drivers. And that you wanna see this hair stand up on the back of my neck? I said, I'm gonna ask you something, sir. And I'm gonna ask you one simple question that I want a direct answer. Just name, and I do this a lot.

29:32 - 29:46Tim Kordula: Name me one thing that's not delivered by a truck. Just name me one. And I don't mean a semi, but I mean a truck. Do you have a shipping lane or a railroad track in your backyard next to Walmart or your favorite fuel stop? Name me one thing that's not delivered by a truck.

29:46 - 30:10Tim Kordula: And then once you can't do that, then I'm gonna explain to you what that truck driver goes through every day, because I was one, okay, and I know what we go through. We got his attention real quick. So, you know, they are professionals, you know? Now, obviously there are... We got to some on the other end too that probably could use some professionalism training, but on the same token, we are professionals.

30:10 - 30:26Tim Kordula: I'll challenge anybody to do what an over the road or even a short haul driver does. With the proper training, you can do it. It's not as easy as what everybody thinks. So, yes, being... I mean, if you are a professional truck driver, then be that professional truck driver because you are.

30:26 - 30:28Tim Kordula: You are definitely a pro.

30:28 - 30:50Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And that brings us to training and readiness. From your experience with CDL instruction and examination, what does earning a CDL tell us about a driver? And what does it not tell us about their readiness for a particular carrier?

30:51 - 31:15Tim Kordula: That's the question of the day. So what we're going through right now with a lot of the fraudulent CDL schools being, you know, basically shut down. Just a real quick backstory. When I first started my first CDL school, it was before entry level driver training was mandatory. But I built that school around ELDT exactly the way it was supposed to be.

31:15 - 31:47Tim Kordula: And when it came to be in February 2022, we were ready to go. So to answer the question, a CDL basically tells you that a driver passed their skills test, okay? They passed it on a specific day. It does not tell you how well they performed under pressure, even though they passed that skills test, okay? Unfortunately, in some States, there's a new modernization skills test that doesn't quite shake hands with ELDT so that the moves are a little bit different.

31:47 - 32:05Tim Kordula: So what they were taught in school might not be what they were tested on to a point. It's still a good test, don't get me wrong. But did they drive in adverse weather? Did they drive or try to get into a tight dock? What happens after nine, ten hours of driving?

32:05 - 32:19Tim Kordula: What type of mood are they in? How are they feeling? What happens when dispatch pushes them? These are all things that happen. Now they're in a carrier, CDL, they basically have passed some skills tests.

32:19 - 32:43Tim Kordula: They went through the theory, they passed the skills test. If it's a good school, they're going to be ready to start a finishing program, okay? I don't believe in going right from CDL school to a carrier and say, off you go, and they send that driver anywhere they think they can drive. That's not the case. A good solid finishing program, whether it be a couple of weeks, you know, a structured program that might last six weeks.

32:43 - 33:04Tim Kordula: I've heard of finishing programs that last six months, you know, which I think is outstanding. Again, the CDL, this is the way I look at it. The CDL gives them a license to learn. Fleet orientation, mentoring determine whether they can actually become safe. So that CDL is a license to learn.

33:04 - 33:10Tim Kordula: It's also a license to drive, don't get me wrong, but I just think it needs to go to that next step or get involved in a finishing program.

33:11 - 33:25Ginger Craddock: Some of the conversations that I've been involved with recently have been around carriers creating relationships with high quality CDL schools.

33:25 - 33:25Tim Kordula: What

33:26 - 33:43Ginger Craddock: would you share with a fleet executive and say, hey, here are some things you should look for in that school if you're looking to fill your pipeline, look for these standards. What would you recommend that they look for?

33:43 - 34:35Tim Kordula: So that's another great question because these are things that I did with, in particular with the last carrier, is we would, once we found out if they were a newer driver, now obviously somebody that's got ten years experience, you know, going back to when they, if they went through school, it can be a little tough, but if it's a newer driver, is what school do they go to? And the first thing that I look at is, is that school part of an association? There's two great associations out there, CVTA, Commercial Vehicle Training Association, and the National Association of Publicly Funded Truck Driving Schools. Here's the way I look at it. I'm not here to say that schools that aren't members aren't good schools, but the ones that are members have invested themselves into belonging to those associations, attending conferences, attending webinars, and learning more how they can become better.

34:35 - 34:48Tim Kordula: So that's the first thing that I would say is vet the school, find out if they're part of any association, and then ask them for the curriculum. That's public knowledge. Curriculum should be public knowledge. You know why? Because it's entry level driver training.

34:48 - 35:13Tim Kordula: They're supposed to be teaching under the part FMCSA, okay? So I need a copy of your curriculum. Any good school is gonna give them either a copy of the curriculum, a copy of the syllabus on what exactly they're teaching. ELDT doesn't require hours, it requires proficiency. But did that person finish in three weeks or did they finish in weeks or seven weeks?

35:13 - 35:32Tim Kordula: And where did they have issues? One of the conversations that I always have with drivers when I bring them in from a newer school is describe to me your CDL skills test. You know, what were you tested? What backing maneuvers were you tested on? What backing maneuvers were you trained on in CDL school?

35:33 - 36:04Tim Kordula: Vet the school, talk to the driver, make sure the stories are the same, because I've had that already where, you know, the driver tells me one thing and then I vet the school and they tell me another thing, you know, so the quality of the school depends on their investment in the industry, and again, the investment in the individual student? Is this just a mill where they're trying to get these drivers in and out and make a bunch of money? Or are they truly, like you and I just talked a minute ago, are they truly invested in the industry?

36:05 - 36:28Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. And then, so thinking about the pipeline through the relationship through the right CDL school, unpack some of your high level ideas that you would share with executives to say, hey, consider these pieces in a finishing program. Here's some things I'd pay attention to.

36:29 - 36:58Tim Kordula: Great. Yeah, I like that because the problem sometimes with a carrier starting a finishing school is they're mimicking what the student was taught in the CDL. They have their CDL, so they learn that this isn't retraining them. Okay, look at your individual operations, train them, pull those pieces apart. You know, excuse me, are you going into a certain area that maybe this driver's never been?

36:58 - 37:17Tim Kordula: Okay. Are you spending more time in the city, but yet this person lives out in the country and they've never been outside their hometown? Okay. So start picking the most important parts of your operation first, whether it be, you know, okay, we have monthly safety meetings. This is you're required to be there.

37:18 - 37:49Tim Kordula: This is how we want you dropping and hooking. This is how we want your pre trips done. This is, you know, pick from the top down what your priorities are within your fleet and start working with those drivers from there. Now, the key here is like we talked before, is make sure you have a really good mentor or a really good trainer that can convey that information. Obviously, don't wanna be bringing in a person that just either was reprimanded or coached on some bad habits, and then all of a sudden now they're out training, okay?

37:49 - 38:13Tim Kordula: Get your people who you are grooming, to work up the ladders, a mentor, an instructor, a trainer, what have you, and let them work with them. But that person, that trainer should be able to identify strengths and weaknesses. So once they've identified that, come back to the safety team, come back to management, say, this is where I need to work. This is what we need to do. Don't put them on the road yet.

38:13 - 38:22Tim Kordula: I will sign off. I need more work on the range. I need more work on the road and go from there. So prioritize your fleet operations and work from there.

38:25 - 39:08Ginger Craddock: Excellent insight. And one thing I'm hearing from the professional drivers of the year that I talked to at a recent conference, each one of them said they were looking for career pathing opportunities. And so in what you've just unpacked, we can see a way to not only find the right cultural fit, improve the driver pool, but also create some career pathing for those who, career pathing doesn't mean they're going to operations or safety. It might mean that they become a driver trainer. So their lives change over what their needs are as they have a family or whatever.

39:08 - 39:29Ginger Craddock: And so what I'm hearing is just like the hires that I'm hiring for what I do, every one of these young professionals is looking for career pathing typically. So that's something that we can think about in this context as well. So I've got one final question before we pivot to our rapid fire, which is always fun.

39:29 - 39:30Tim Kordula: Okay.

39:30 - 39:46Ginger Craddock: So before that, tell me about a driver hiring or training situation that you've seen that changed the way you think about the relationship between recruiting and risk.

39:47 - 40:07Tim Kordula: Oh, that's easy. That's easy. Putting an MVR completely aside and going solely by what the driver said in the interview, for going a scheduled road test, just completely eliminating, bring them in and here we go. And next thing you know, that driver is being involved in preventable accidents. So I look back, talk to the recruiter and say, did you do this?

40:07 - 40:11Tim Kordula: Did you do this? Did you do this? No. End of story. Done.

40:12 - 40:13Tim Kordula: And that's

40:13 - 40:19Ginger Craddock: goes back to what you said. Look for patterns. Yeah. Look for patterns in the drivers. Look through patterns in safety.

40:19 - 40:24Ginger Craddock: Look through patterns in recruiting. Yep. That... That's great.

40:24 - 40:24Tim Kordula: Yeah.

40:24 - 40:29Ginger Craddock: Yes. Okay. There's the answer. Alright. Now we're gonna pivot to the rapid fire.

40:29 - 40:31Ginger Craddock: This is always fun. So are you ready, Tim?

40:31 - 40:32Tim Kordula: I'm ready. Let it rip.

40:33 - 40:35Ginger Craddock: Alright. Empty truck or wrong driver?

40:35 - 40:37Tim Kordula: Empty truck.

40:37 - 40:40Ginger Craddock: Experience or coachability?

40:40 - 40:41Tim Kordula: Coachability.

40:42 - 40:50Ginger Craddock: Skill or judgment? Judgment. One driver risk recruiters tend to underestimate.

40:51 - 40:56Tim Kordula: Taking a good driver and putting them into a bad system, pressure versus performance.

40:58 - 41:04Ginger Craddock: Wow. One thing safety teams wish recruiting understood.

41:05 - 41:22Tim Kordula: Recruiting is not... Actually, rephrase that. Recruiting is the starting line, not the finishing line, okay? The hire is not done right at the offer letter, Okay, so just it's again, it's a starting line. It's just a place to start.

41:22 - 41:23Tim Kordula: That's all it is.

41:24 - 41:29Ginger Craddock: One characteristic you won't compromise on in a driver.

41:29 - 41:32Tim Kordula: Oh, from a safety guy, it would have to be safety.

41:34 - 41:48Ginger Craddock: But... And thank you for doing your job with excellence because our families are all on the road and not just that... And that driver has a family too. What gives you optimism about trucking right now?

41:49 - 42:19Tim Kordula: You know, being... I've been in this industry for so long and I've seen administrative changes, I will have to say, and I've said this before, that the two that we have leading our industry, Secretary Duffy and Administrator Bars, I call them the dynamic duo. They're doing things that I didn't think could get done, and they're doing it at a rapid fire pace to make this industry better. Whether it be take unqualified drivers off the road, shutting down unqualified CDL schools, that is what is going to make this industry better.

42:20 - 42:34Ginger Craddock: Absolutely. If a fleet executive listening today wants to reduce driver related risk without sacrificing the ability to hire, what's the first thing that you would tell them to change?

42:34 - 43:00Tim Kordula: So we... There's a lot of good outlets out there for driver monitoring. So replace that MVR, which you're only doing once a year, okay? Maybe replace it with a monitoring, whether you do it in house or a third party, replace that binary hire, no hire MVR cutoff with a kind of a risk tiered scoring method. Tier one, you're green.

43:00 - 43:26Tim Kordula: Higher, standard, perfect. Tier two, yellow, hire with conditions, maybe get them some more telematics, shorter review cycle, coaching requirement. And then obviously there's a tier three, which is red, which is, see you, can't hire you. It kind of expand your hiring funnel a little bit by tearing it that way while actually improving your risk profile.

43:28 - 43:40Ginger Craddock: Tim, thank you for a thoughtful, informative conversation today. So where can our listeners connect with you and learn more about the work that you're doing?

43:40 - 43:58Tim Kordula: Oh, so this has been great. Thank you for having me. This is an absolute pleasure. I am again, I'm a senior risk advisor with AccraSure, so I can be riskresources.com, accrasure.com. I'm in the Midwest region, but we're all listed under the AccraSure website.

43:59 - 44:22Tim Kordula: And again, you know, we obviously we get out there as risk consultants, we work with carriers. More than happy, you know, I'm a member of CVTA. I'm a member of Wisconsin Motor Carriers Association. So I can be reached through those organizations as well. And I'm more than happy to talk to or consult anybody on any of these topics.

44:22 - 44:24Tim Kordula: Because again, this is it's all about the industry.

44:25 - 44:48Ginger Craddock: It truly is. Tim, thank you for joining me today. I appreciate your insights and the work that you're doing to make a difference in our industry. And to everyone listening, thank you being a part of the Hire Truckers Podcast community. And until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and remember to find joy in the journey.